(CINDY): [00:00:08] I had just turned five when dad went missing.

(HOST): [00:00:13] Cindy Stonebraker joining me via Zoom from Louisville, Kentucky.

(CINDY): [00:00:19] Even at a small age, we knew with that little blue car meant and I can still vividly see the little blue car with the yellow words on it that said U.S. Air Force and as, as kids being out in the yard playing. If one of those cars went down the road, we knew what it meant. And we were actually outside playing when that car pulled into our driveway.

(HOST): [00:00:49] More than 1500 Americans from the Vietnam War remain unaccounted for. Cindy’s father is one of them. In today’s episode, we’ll hear more about her experience as the daughter of an MIA service member, and we’ll hear from ultra endurance athlete Rebecca Rusch, who rode 1200 miles through the jungles of Southeast Asia on a bicycle in search of her father’s crash site. From the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, founders of The Wall. This is Echoes of the Vietnam War. I’m your host, Michael Croan, bringing you stories of service, sacrifice and healing from people who still feel the impact of that conflict. Nearly 50 years later. This is Episode 13 Missing in Action. In a college history class, Cindy Stonebraker was asked to deliver an oral book report to 15 classmates, all of whom she knew well. Her fear of public speaking was so great that she declined and flunked the class. So it’s pretty remarkable that she has emerged as one of the most vocal advocates for MIA families. Her passion for the issue has overruled her fear, and today she speaks regularly to large audiences about it. She sits on the board of directors for the National League of POW/MIA Families, and in her day job with the Woody Williams Foundation, Cindy helps run programs and create events that bring gold star families together. In October of 1968, Cindy’s father, Lieutenant Colonel Kenneth Stone Stonebraker, took off from Udorn airfield in Thailand in an RF foresee tactical reconnaissance aircraft. He never returned.

(CINDY): [00:02:52] We had been stationed at Shaw Air Force Base in South Carolina. Dad was deployed to Udorn Airfield in Thailand and attached to the 11th Technical Reconnaissance Squadron at Udorn Airfield. At that point, he had served for 10 years. He got to Thailand in the end of May of 1968 and went missing the end of October of 1968.

(HOST): [00:03:21] What happened next?

(CINDY): [00:03:23] We move to a small little town in Northern California. And we were about as far away from the military as you could get. And none of the kids I went to school with had dads that were away, and we just never talked about it. We didn’t talk about it at home, and we certainly didn’t talk about it in public. So I grew up feeling. All alone, like nobody understood and that my dad had been forgotten.

(HOST): [00:03:58] And for the most part, that’s how things remained for Cindy. Decades passed, and then one day about eight years ago, she was traveling for work and stopped at a rest area. What happened there would change the course of her life?

(CINDY): [00:04:13] There were seven Rolling Thunder members hoisting the POW/MIA flag, and I sat and watched them, and when they got done for the very first time, I walked up and I said, my dad still missing in Vietnam. And that day forever changed my life. You know, they told me that my dad hadn’t been forgotten and that I wasn’t all alone. And that day led me to an event in Americus, Georgia, with an invite from them that connected me with other M.I.A. Kids. And that meeting led me to D.C. to get to see the Vietnam Memorial Wall for the very first time and attend a National League of P.O.W. and MIA families yearly update, where I got to sit across the table from the government officials that were still actively working on my dad’s case. And at that point, I didn’t know any of that was going on. I didn’t know anybody. I didn’t know anybody was still working on this issue.

(HOST): [00:05:19] How important was it for you to connect with other people who had similar stories?

(CINDY): [00:05:25] I’ll be honest, I can’t even adequately describe in words what that has meant. When I got to Americus, Georgia, and I at the event called the ride home, and I remember sitting in the lobby of the hotel with seven other MIA kids, and it was the first time in my life I had ever been around anybody like me. And we sat in that lobby. None of us slept. We’d go to the events during the day and we would sit in that lobby until three or four o’clock in the morning and we would share stories. And I had very little to share because I didn’t, I didn’t know anything, but I got to hear about their growing ups and what it was like to be in a high school play and not have your daddy there and not be able to explain to somebody why he’s not there, where he’s at. Um. And just knowing that you were in a room full of people that understood. Is beyond words to me.

(HOST): [00:06:31] You were able to meet with people who are actively looking for your father. Can you talk a little bit about those efforts and in terms of the almost 1600 who are still missing? What do people need to know?

(CINDY): [00:06:42] In 2018, I had the privilege to get to participate in a official delegation trip to Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos and Thailand with the National League of POW/MIA families. And during that time, we met with the government officials for continued and expanded support. The turning over of archival documents and access to live witnesses to help bring home our unreturned veterans. Part of my time there, I was able to spend time up on top of a mountain in Laos at an excavation site where we were excavating an EF four. While I was up on top of that mountain. I wasn’t really prepared for what I was going to witness, because when I got up there, there were two complete Lao villages that were working hand in hand with our American team there. And they would take one, one shovel of dirt, and it would go in a bucket and it would get passed around by the villagers till it got in the screening area and they would screen that bucket and anything that was in in the screen that was bigger than the end of your fingernail got documented and, and sent to the lab. And I got to see the passion and dedication on the faces of those that were working this issue and it was hot and there was a lot of other places that they could be. Working, but this is where they’re this is where they’re dedicating their time is to helping bring closure to, to us families.

(HOST): [00:08:28] You mentioned the word closure. Your father hasn’t been found. And I just wonder what that, what that must be like for you to be standing on top of the mountain in Laos and watch a family go through that revelation that you haven’t had yet?

(CINDY): [00:08:49] I didn’t get closure on that mountain. Um. And there’s a very strong chance that my father’s remains will not be found. The soil in Southeast Asia is so acidic that I had the opportunity to visit several other sites that they found personal items but found no physical remains because the soil’s literally eating the bone away, so there, there is a very large chance that we may never really know or may never be able to get my dad’s remains on U.S. soil. But having been there and having seen the thousands of hours that are going into going through archival documents. Walking through the jungles of Southeast Asia and interviewing witnesses to try to find crash sites and the dedication of the guys that are on the ground. I will know that it wasn’t because they didn’t try.

(HOST): [00:10:10] The defense POW/MIA Accounting Agency, or DPAA, is the federal agency whose mission is quote to provide the fullest possible accounting for our missing personnel to their families and the nation. Since 1973, the remains of more than a thousand Americans killed in the Vietnam War have been identified and returned to their families for burial with full military honors. But DPAA’s current tally of U.S. personnel still unaccounted for stands at more than 1500. The United States continues to conduct joint field activities with the governments of Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia to recover the remains of missing Americans, investigating crash and burial sites and interviewing locals for additional information.

(CINDY): [00:10:57] We can’t let this effort end. I think that as we are approaching POW/MIA recognition day, we need to recommit to that full, fullest possible accounting when and when it comes to Southeast Asia. We’re going into that next generation. More and more of the parents are no longer there. Now it’s the children that are waiting. It’s the children that are taking charge of the movement of it. But we’re getting older as well. So unless that mission gets passed down to our kids. The legacy of our loved ones could be forgotten if no one is willing to keep it going.

(HOST): [00:11:46] If people want to get involved. What do you recommend as a first step?

(CINDY): [00:11:52] The National League of POW Mia families. For those that are still missing or to make a donation. DPAA.gov for the most updated statistics of the mission. And the WoodyWilliams.org, we have a community calendar page that not only will show you where we are going dedication wise, but other outreach events that we do to help bring gold star families together.

(HOST): [00:12:26] Big thanks to Cindy for sharing her passion and perspective on this issue. As usual, our conversation was heavily edited for this format. If you’d like to hear the entire interview and I recommend you do, because she told some really beautiful stories that we had to cut for time, you can find it on the VMV YouTube channel. Also, one minor correction the website for DPAA is actually DPAA.mil. After a break, the amazing story of a daughter’s search for her father’s crash site on the Ho Chi Minh trail in Laos and what she found that doesn’t exist on any map.

(REBECCA): [00:13:05] You know, they call the Ho Chi Minh Trail Blood Road because so many people died there. But I came away from it feeling like it’s, it’s our blood, our connectivity to family and thinking of blood road in that way, because that is what I’ve gained from it is the family that I didn’t know that I had.

(HOST): [00:13:53] I talked to a lot of people who are connected in one way or another to the war in Vietnam. Some served and made it home to tell their stories. Some have family who served. They all have different perspectives about the conflict and the many issues associated with it. But they all have two things in common they feel connected to someone who didn’t make it home, which binds them to each other in a way. And they all say that being at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Wall is an indescribable experience. But not everybody can make it to The Wall in Washington, D.C., and that’s why we created The Wall That Heals. It’s a precise replica of The Wall at three quarter scale that travels to communities all across America. The Wall That Heals and the Mobile Education Center that travels with it will be in Blackfoot, Idaho, September 16 through 19, and Longview, Washington, September 23 through 26. For more 2021 tour dates and locations, visit VVMf.org. I hesitate to mention this because I don’t want to jinx it, but we’re on a pace to get awfully close to 10000 downloads before September is out. It’s going to be it’s going to be tight, but I think we can get there. That’s a huge milestone for our little podcast and we’re really grateful for your support. If you want to help us accelerate toward that goal, there are a couple of easy things you can do. You can share the podcast with a friend or two friends. Another thing that helps us out more than you’d think is if you leave us a rating or a review wherever you get your podcasts like Apple Podcasts or Spotify, for example, that little action really helps new listeners find us.

(HOST): [00:15:44] In the meantime, and as always, let us know what you think by emailing [email protected], unless you think that nobody reads those emails. Remember episodes seven and eight about Bill Rocketman Klobas and his daughter Casey? Well, guess how we found out about that story? That’s right. [email protected]. Rebecca Rusch is a professional adventure athlete who has won seven World Championships. She’s also a best-selling author and keynote speaker and the founder of the Be Good Foundation, which she’ll tell you more about in just a little bit. The 2017 documentary Blood Road follows Rebecca twelve hundred miles through the jungles of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos in search of the place where her father’s plane went down in 1971. The film added an Emmy to Rebecca’s long list of achievements. I should note, too, that Rebecca’s sister is Dr. Sharon Bannister, a major general in the United States Air Force and a VVMF board member. Their mother, Judy, was not messing around. Their father, Steve Rusch, was a real Renaissance man, a fan of fast cars and flying machines. He had a head for engineering as an avid musician and wanderer. He had the heart of a poet when his plane was shot down over the Ho Chi Minh Trail in Laos. Rebecca was too young to have known any of this.

(REBECCA): [00:17:28] He died when I was three years old, so I don’t have any of my own memories. I do know he spent a good deal of time traveling and playing in coffee shops and playing played 12 string guitar. He played banjo harmonica and so I know that he traveled the country, the U.S. one summer in a converted mail truck that he converted into a camper with his friend Stuart Nordheimer, and went played coffee shops and any. He did enlist in the Vietnam War. He, he didn’t want to go. He, he had a low draft number, and so he knew he was going to be drafted anyway. And if he was going to go, he wanted to make the most of it. And so he enlisted in officer training school and eventually became a pilot and a weapons, weapons operator for the F-4 Phantom. And he went to Vietnam and he didn’t come home. He was shot down in ’72 over the Ho Chi Minh Trail near a small village in Laos called Ta Oy. My sister was six when he was shot down, and I was, you know, just about three. And so I didn’t have my own memories. And when people would say to me as a young kid like, Oh, it’s so terrible, you’re growing up without a father, I’m so sorry, I’m so sorry, and I don’t really know how to respond because for me, you can’t miss what you don’t know as a kid.

(REBECCA): [00:19:00] This was my life growing up with my mom and my sister. I didn’t know anything different. I do remember growing up I would dream that I was meeting him one day in a coffee shop where I was an adult. He, of course, was the age of the pictures that I’ve always seen him, you know, and, and I just I’d have this reoccurring dream of meeting in a coffee shop and, and telling him all about my life and telling him what I was doing and him sitting across the table smiling and, and just being proud of me and. And I did wonder, you know, is he alive? Did he have a family in Vietnam because we’ve all read those stories, did he? Did he move on without us and or was he a prisoner of war? Was he suffering somewhere? And in the back of my head, I thought about that. Occasionally it would pop into my subconscious and then float away, and we weren’t connected to other POW/MIA families.

(REBECCA): [00:20:04] We, it wasn’t until much later that I even learned what a gold star family is. 2002 is the first time I went to Vietnam, and as an athlete, as a professional athlete, I went there for a race and it was a multi-day adventure race through the jungles of Vietnam and it was hot and humid and really difficult conditions, and being in that place was the first time I had a really strong curiosity about my father and what he went through and what, what all the soldiers went through. That really opened my curiosity for two reasons. One. Physically being in the place and feeling a presence, and also my mom opening up and telling stories about what her experience was like and that the letters that she got from the Vietnam War came from this place. And this is where he took his, his days off his R&R on China Beach and that was the first time I felt connected to him, and I know it’s because I was standing in places where he had been. 2015, I finally put together an expedition and took a journey to ride my bike the entire length of the Ho Chi Minh trail and really go deep into this story.

(HOST): [00:21:37] You’re the first person to do that, right?

(REBECCA): [00:21:39] I think I’m the first person to ride the trail from end to end the entire length through Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia as an ultra-endurance athlete. I was using what I know to connect with my dad in the only way that I know how to put together an incredible adventure. But with a very magnetic pull for these map coordinates for me to go there, I had to go there. I didn’t know it my entire life, but I think I’ve been leading to that moment in that ride. I’ve been practicing for it my whole life, learning how to read maps and plan expeditions and ride for thousands of miles. It was all in preparation of getting to know my dad and getting to meet my dad, and that was a pivotal moment in my life. But I can look back now and see all those little pieces that were were leading me there. I think one of my proudest achievements in my life, more than any World Championship or anything else, was being able to make the film Blood Road and to tell my story and to be able to share that with other people and help them heal and forgive and, and connect with a family that is there waiting for them and to also know, hopefully know that people who are gone are still so much a part of us.

(HOST): [00:23:10] One of the striking things about the movie is that it doesn’t just focus on your loss of your father or even more generally on American losses, right, there’s a very sincere acknowledgement of the losses on the other side as well.

(REBECCA): [00:23:26] Well, when I rode with Huyen Nguyen, who is a Vietnamese cyclist, very decorated Vietnamese cyclist and barely spoke English and her father experienced the war on their side that they call the American war. And, you know, riding with her was a really important factor in me understanding two sides of the same story and us riding the same trail and, and really becoming sisters and friends, even without language and with, you know, a devastating shared experience. And you know, they call the Ho Chi Minh Trail Blood Road because so many people died there and there was so much bloodshed. But I came away from it feeling like it’s, it’s, it’s our blood, our connectivity to family and thinking of Blood Road in that way, because that is what I’ve gained from it is a connection to my blood family, but also a family that I didn’t know that I had and to the Vietnamese people and Lao people along the trail. We had poured over the reports of the crash of the excavation. I even got to talk to the man who was the pilot who was in the second plane, who, who saw my dad’s plane go down. He remembers writing that report after coming back to base. And so we had all of those kind of that kind of information, the technical information. But when I went to Laos, to this village of Ta Oy and, and the place where, where my dad’s plane went down, the map coordinates, you know, you have to ask permission there.

(REBECCA): [00:25:24] You don’t just wander around in the woods. And so we went to the village chief and asked permission to go to this place and would he take us? And as it turned out, I didn’t know any of this, but the village chief of Ta Oy, and they live in small thatched huts. There’s no plumbing, no running water. We sit in this hut, meet this kind, gentle man who the moment I saw him, our eyes locked and I didn’t know for what reason, but I just felt a connection to him. And then as he started to tell the story through a translator, it turns out his father was the village chief at the time. His mom was pregnant with him at the time of the crash and his father and another Lao villager, they waited for the bombing to stop for, for days and then went out to the site of the crash to see if there were any survivors. And they found two, two American bodies. They were dead and his father and the other Lao villager, they buried my father in Carter Hall. They moved their bodies under this tree and buried them, and Mr. Eyre(?), the son who was in his mom’s belly at the time. He told me the story that his mom and dad told him, and he said that the shaman of the village had, had told his mother, you know, when one spirit dies, another is born, and that this spirit will be born in your son and Mr. Eyre, Mr. Eyre pointed and told me that story, and he pointed at me and said, You and I are brother and sister. I knew you would come here. And I mean, I just sat there in awe and disbelief that he already knew I was coming. He said he’d had dreams about someone coming. We had pictures of the excavation and you see the little markings of like where the crash site was, where they dug. There’s, there’s tape around and just outside of the tape is the tree that I found and the place where Mr. Eyre (?) Me that his father buried the body so they had moved the bodies down under a tree. And that’s, that’s why the remains weren’t found. It explains it to me so clearly, and it’s so obvious. And. And so beautiful to hear the story personally. From the son of the guy who was there, who experienced it all and, and just the connectivity that we have for him to say, I knew you were coming. And I’ve been back four times since and every time he says, you know, he smiles and he’s not surprised. He said, I had a dream. I knew you were coming back. And he is my brother. You know, we do have a shared family history in a very unique way. And so Blood Road for me doesn’t signify the loss and the death that happens there, but it signifies the connection of family.

(HOST): [00:28:39] One of the things about being Rebecca Rusch is preparation, right? Everything in the preparation you talked about mapping, you talked about the expedition planning, right? You’ve got to think about when and where to resupply. I don’t know how long it took you to plan that, that ride, but I would imagine that it was planned about as thoroughly as anything you’ve ever done in your life. And yet there were surprises. What were some of the big surprises?

(REBECCA): [00:29:08] The biggest one is well two one, how welcomed I was into, into this place where my father was bombing and to, you know, you imagine if someone came and knocked on your door and said, you know, in your backyard, my family was trying to was dropping bombs here and creating devastation. Can I come on in and take a look? And if you put it in that context, it’s so amazing how welcoming and friendly the Southeast Asian people are. The Vietnamese, Lao, Cambodian, I was welcomed with open arms and supported, you know, with Huyen [Nguyen] being on a mission for me to find my father when my father was one of the people dropping bombs on their country. But learning that the past is the past and the way forward is, is to honor the past, but let go of it because holding animosity towards what happened Huyen and I, we weren’t there, we weren’t part of it. But we can be part of the future. And just two women riding together to me was a big eye opener in forgiveness. We were a month in the jungle on the trail, and I came back from that ride quite lost.

(REBECCA): [00:30:43] And even though I found my dad, I had had an amazing journey. It took me years to process what that trip meant, and I feel like I’m just getting there now. Twelve hundred miles through the jungle, literally using machetes to get through in some places, the riding and that part of it was the easy part for me. The hard part was the emotional part and being open with people there to, you know, I’m a very private person and doing interviews every night after the ride and talking about the experience and trying to talk to Huyen. The emotional sort of openness was very challenging for someone like me who’s an athlete, and I’m built to put up this exterior to be tough, to be resilient and not show any weakness, and that it was really hard to be that open. It was a very new experience for me, but I knew it wasn’t about me. I knew that. Just being open was actually the best way to go, I didn’t know why. I just knew that I couldn’t hold anything back.

(HOST): [00:31:59] Once you open up like that, you tend to stay that way. Have you found that you’re, you’re more open since then?

(REBECCA): [00:32:09] I am more open in discussing how I’m feeling or what happened with our family. And because I see that almost every time when I’m honest and open, there’s a reward. You know, someone gives you a hug or someone says thank you, and that’s why I go to nature. It’s why I ride my bike. It’s why I, I go to these, you know, on these long expeditions is, is a sense of physical place, helps me find my home emotionally on the inside. You know, going back to Laos and digging into my dad’s history was not an easy path for my family, and when I started asking again and digging, it was quite painful for my mom to relive it for my uncles and cousins who remember. It was not an easy story, but it, it needed to happen because it had been the comparison that I can make, it was like breaking a bone that didn’t heal, right, so that it could heal properly now. And it was quite painful for all of us, and I almost gave up on the trip a couple of times because it seemed too hard and too painful and people didn’t want to talk. Or I could tell it was it was hurtful, and I didn’t want to hurt my family and I didn’t want to hurt. But I’m glad I pushed through because now the bone has healed more correctly and a little more straight.

(REBECCA): [00:33:50] And that’s the importance of storytelling and not forgetting because we do learn from our history. I’m learning from my dad every day and from the people who knew him. My dad is teaching me every day. I feel him every day and I can look back now and know he was there during my childhood at certain moments, but I wasn’t aware of it. And, and I distinctly feel so clearly that my dad’s message to me was to use my reach and the sort of public figure that I am as an athlete to do more. And that’s where I start after I came back from that finding out about the unexploded ordinance. I didn’t know what UXO meant, you know, so naive and discovering that 50 years later, bombs are still killing people, that there are cluster munitions that didn’t explode and villagers are injured and die every year in vast numbers. That was a shock to me to see on the ground the devastation and to know that the bombs are still killing people. I knew I had to do something and I started the Be Good foundation in his name. I started collaborating with Article Twenty Two, which is a group that makes, helps clear bombs and takes the war aluminum and makes bracelets out of them.

(REBECCA): [00:35:17] Bracelets, jewelry, the earrings I’m wearing are all made from unexploded ordnance that are cleared, safely cleared, and I work with Mines Advisory Group in, in this aspect and, and the good foundation is, is all about using my bike for healing, empowerment and evolution and. It’s named the Be Good foundation after my dad. Those are the words that he wrote in his letters home from the Vietnam War. He signed every letter with the words Be Good. And so his handwriting is our logo, and that’s really my mission statement from him. And those are my instructions for my dad to be good. You know, I grew up in a single parent household where we did have to be independent. My mom was at work all day and we had to take care of ourselves, and I’m grateful to have learned that, that skill of resilience and independence and taking care of myself. But. I think the other side, you know, in my, my dad’s DNA, that it wasn’t as developed was, was the gentle musician, the artist, the sort of that other side of me was less developed as I was growing up as an athlete and entrepreneur and very much type A go getter. And what I’m learning from my dad is, is the flip side of that and slowing down a little, being gentle, having some openness.

(REBECCA): [00:36:55] And it’s not easy. It’s still a practice, but that’s why I go back to places like The Wall. That’s why I go do speeches with my sister. That’s why we’re talking today is this is part of my healing, but it’s also part of everyone else’s healing. Yeah, my dad was a folk singer, you know, he loved Bob Dylan and Pete Seeger, and you know that and I listen to that kind of music all the time now. And my mom, she was a bit of a groupie and she recorded one of his concerts that he did in a coffee shop. And one of the songs that really resonates with me is a song called Can’t Help But Wonder Where I’m Bound and, and it’s it sticks with my head, all the in my head all the time. And it talks about it, talks about people wandering and not knowing where they’re going and feeling lost or in pain. And then ultimately the last verse is, is about coming home. We are all wandering, we’re all a little lost. But eventually, we find love and friendship and we come home. And so this song is pretty special to me. It’s the only time I’ve heard his voice. Is that is that song. And so I listen to it a lot. It does help me.

(STEVE): [00:38:26] Hey, it’s a long and dusty road and a hot and heavy load. Folks, I mean, it always kind. Some are bad. Some are good. Some have done the best they could. Some have tried to ease my troubling mind. And I can’t help but wonder where I’m bound, where I’m down. Can’t help but wonder where I’m bound.

(STEVE): [00:39:01] Well, I’ve been around this land just to doing the best I can, trying to find out what I was meant to do and the faces that I see there as worried as can be, and it looks like they’re wondering too. And I can’t help but wonder where I’m bound, where I’m bound. I can’t help but wonder where I’m bound.

(STEVE): [00:39:35] Well, I had a little gal. One time she had the looks like a cherry one(?), one, she love me till my head went plum insane. But I was too blind to see she was drifting away from me till one day she left in the morning train. And I can’t help but wonder where I’m bound, where I’m bound. Can’t help but wonder where I’m bound.

(STEVE): [00:40:10] I know I had a buddy from home till he started out to a roam last I heard he was out by the Frisco Bay and sometimes I’ve had a few his own voice come singing through and I’m going out to see him some old day. And I can’t help but wonder where I’m bound, where I’m bound. Can’t help but wonder where I’m bound.

(STEVE): [00:40:43] So if you see me passing by and you sit and you wonder why you wish that you’re a rambler too. Nail your shoes to the kitchen floor. Lace them up and bar the door. Thank your stars for the roof that’s over you. And I can’t help but wonder where I’m bound, where I’m bound. Can’t help but wonder where I’m bound once again, and I can’t help but wonder where I’m bound, where I’m bound. I can’t help but wonder where I’m bound. Thank you.

(HOST): [00:41:23] That’s Steve Rusch and his best friend, Stuart Nordheimer. We’ll see you in two weeks. Be good.

Full Interview with Cindy Stonebraker

Full Interview with Rebecca Rusch

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