CROAN: [00:00:40] This [00:00:30] is episode 55. Born on the 4th of July. Today, [00:00:45] July 4th, is the birthday of the United States of America. It’s also the birthday of 142 service members whose names are on the wall at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial. This is the story [00:01:00] of one of them. Dennis Labruzzo of Grand Rapids, Michigan. Dennis or Denny, as he was sometimes called, was born on July 4th, 1948 and was killed in action on June 6th, 1968. [00:01:15] His name is on the wall at panel 59, West Line six. Denny was a marine and he was engaged to be married when he died. I spoke with his then fiancée, Joyce Washburn, who joined [00:01:30] me via zoom from her home in Grand Rapids. Is Joyce Washburn your married name? Yes. And what was your maiden name?

Joyce Skinner: [00:01:39] My last. My last name was Skinner.

CROAN: [00:01:42] Skinner. Okay, so you were Joyce Skinner [00:01:45] in Grand Rapids, Michigan?

Joyce Skinner: [00:01:48] Yeah, that was that was me. I live about two and a half miles from where I grew up.

CROAN: [00:01:57] Okay.

Joyce Skinner: [00:01:58] I haven’t haven’t gone far. [00:02:00] I live about five blocks from the high school that I went to. So I’m pretty much North Ender girl.

CROAN: [00:02:08] Okay. And and what was it like growing up there in Grand Rapids?

Joyce Skinner: [00:02:13] Grand Rapids is [00:02:15] a strange city. Still is. It was at that time very, um, very white. Um, um, I’ve read a lot. I’m a I’m a history buff, so I read [00:02:30] a lot of stuff about when I grew up and things I didn’t even know that was going on, and it was pretty much a segregated. The whites lived in one area and the blacks lived in another area. It was also very, very conservative. [00:02:45] Um, Jerry Ford lived here, grew up and lived here.

CROAN: [00:02:49] Oh, that’s right.

Joyce Skinner: [00:02:50] We were we were his congressional district for many, many, many, many years. And, you know, my dad was a painting contractor. He had his own [00:03:00] painting business, and he worked out of the home. And my mom did his book work and all the things and answered the phone. So she was at home all the time. So I was really lucky as far as that goes.

CROAN: [00:03:13] So you mentioned earlier that you’re [00:03:15] a history buff.

Joyce Skinner: [00:03:16] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:03:17] Um, and it was in a high school history class that you.

Joyce Skinner: [00:03:19] Yeah. Amazingly. Huh? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

CROAN: [00:03:25] About what do you remember about that class?

Joyce Skinner: [00:03:27] Oh. Mr. Danny the [00:03:30] teacher, he was the best there was, you know. At least I thought so. I had him in 10th grade and 11th grade for history, world history, and 10th grade US history and 11th grade.

CROAN: [00:03:42] And is that where you met Denny?

Joyce Skinner: [00:03:44] Yeah. [00:03:45] He was. He sat in the back and I sat up towards the front and, um, you know, we knew who each other was, But, um, he started talking to me and he said, [00:04:00] oh, I hear you and your boyfriend broke up. I said, yeah, and that was, oh, maybe six weeks before prom. And then the next weekend when I got home, my parents had a cottage at Big Star [00:04:15] Lake, which is in Baldwin, about 90 miles north of Grand Rapids. We got home from the lake and he called. He said he worked at the bowling alley. Hey, you want to come up and go bowling? And [00:04:30] that’s kind of how it’s the whole thing started. My friends would say that he was just my soulmate. He. They’d say to me, you know, maybe, you know, maybe he died, you know, early. [00:04:45] You only had a couple years together, but you guys were really soulmates. And I think about that and I think, oh, that’s kind of crazy, But he he was just he was just a great guy. [00:05:00] He just was a great guy. We liked we both, you know. We both were bowlers. So that was one thing that we both liked. Um, I don’t know. He was just easy to be with. [00:05:15] Easy to talk to. Um, you know, I he was he was just he was he was just Denny, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

CROAN: [00:05:27] Was he a good student? No.

Joyce Skinner: [00:05:29] He [00:05:30] struggled in school.

CROAN: [00:05:31] Yeah. Uh, was he athletic?

Joyce Skinner: [00:05:34] He. He was good at individual sports. You know, he he was, you know, he liked to ball. He loved to golf. Golfing [00:05:45] was his, his favorite thing in in the summer he worked at the at summer. In the winter he worked at the bowling alley, and in the summer I worked at the golf course and in the pro shop.

CROAN: [00:05:59] How long [00:06:00] was it after this first bowling date that you that you two were sort of a thing?

Joyce Skinner: [00:06:08] Well, he asked me to go to prom, which was about a month, about a month later. And then from then on, we [00:06:15] were a thing.

CROAN: [00:06:16] That was it.

Joyce Skinner: [00:06:17] Yeah, that was it.

CROAN: [00:06:18] Wow.

Joyce Skinner: [00:06:20] Yeah, that’s what I mean. It was just like it was supposed to be.

CROAN: [00:06:24] Mhm.

CROAN: [00:06:24] So you were juniors at the time?

Joyce Skinner: [00:06:27] Yes.

CROAN: [00:06:27] So you had all of the following summer together and [00:06:30] then another, another year of school.

Joyce Skinner: [00:06:32] Right. Um, all of our senior year.

CROAN: [00:06:34] Yeah. Can you kind of walk me through that period?

Joyce Skinner: [00:06:38] Um, well, yeah. I mean, in the summer, you know, he worked at the golf course, and he had Mondays off, [00:06:45] so he came over every Monday and we would do something, um, you know, who knows what it would be, whether it would be we’d go swimming at this. There was a lake real close to actually two small lakes close [00:07:00] to my house. Um, or, you know, we’d hang out in the backyard or, uh, you know, who knows what we would do?

CROAN: [00:07:10] You know help him with his schoolwork?

Joyce Skinner: [00:07:12] Oh, yeah. Our senior year. [00:07:15] Yeah. Especially English. And he had a really good, um, I think she was first or second year English teacher, and she would. She. She told him she came around and said, Joyce can help you [00:07:30] as long as you tell her what? What you want to have, what you want to write, what you want to put down. She can do it for you. And so I really helped him with English. We were both, um, we were both in the same, um, physiology [00:07:45] human physiology class. So we did a lot of that work together.

Joyce Skinner: [00:07:51] Um. Yeah, I would help him with whatever he needed. And what we do is, um, at the bowling alley, there was a back [00:08:00] room, and that’s where the mechanics would stay. And then they’d get a, you know, they’d bring them to go out and fix the machine or, you know, get the, get a stuck bowling ball or whatever. So I’d go up there and, um, [00:08:15] we’d study in the back room and I’d help him with his homework. We also had we were also both in Junior Achievement. And so on Monday nights, we’d always go take the bus downtown because that’s [00:08:30] where the Junior Achievement offices were. We, um, eat at one of the either one of the dime stores or one of the department stores.

CROAN: [00:08:39] So at what point did you to start seriously thinking [00:08:45] or talking about a future together?

Joyce Skinner: [00:08:48] Actually, on New Year’s Eve, he asked me to marry him and I was only 17 years old.

CROAN: [00:08:56] Wait. New year’s Eve of your senior year?

Joyce Skinner: [00:08:59] Yeah. [00:09:00]

Joyce Skinner: [00:09:00] So that, you know, that was that was it, you know.

CROAN: [00:09:06] What did you say?

Joyce Skinner: [00:09:07] I just was in total shock. We were at my girlfriend’s house. Her and her boyfriend and me and Dennis were there celebrating [00:09:15] New Year’s, and he just right in front of them, he, you know, he said, I want to spend the rest of my life with you. And I, you know. And I said, yeah, me too. [00:09:30] So that that was, that was, you know, from then on. And then we got officially engaged, um, when he was home on leave after boot camp.

CROAN: [00:09:44] And so [00:09:45] when he asked you the first. Initially, Yeah. Did you have any idea at that point that he intended to go in the military?

Joyce Skinner: [00:09:52] No, and I don’t think he did either.

CROAN: [00:09:55] Okay.

Joyce Skinner: [00:09:56] You know, I mean, we were in that, you know, it was 1967, [00:10:00] so we weren’t in we weren’t in that real draft thing in Vietnam was not the real, you know, there wasn’t a whole lot going on or in the news [00:10:15] or anything like that.

CROAN: [00:10:16] Mhm.

Joyce Skinner: [00:10:17] And um, it wasn’t until later that year when we were downtown going to Junior Achievement, he decided he wanted to go in and talk to the recruiters. [00:10:30] Um, we went to the Navy recruiter and to the marine recruiter. Recruiter. So, um, one of one of his friends said that he felt as though he needed to prove himself. Now, [00:10:45] he never said that to me, but this was one of his very good friends. And he said, David said to me, Dennis told me that he really felt as though he needed to prove himself.

CROAN: [00:10:59] In the Marine Corps. [00:11:00] Sure is the place to do it, I guess.

Joyce Skinner: [00:11:02] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:11:03] So you think that the draft had nothing to do with his his? No. I mean, he wasn’t.

Joyce Skinner: [00:11:07] No, I really don’t, because I don’t. Most people didn’t. I mean, it wasn’t that wasn’t you know, people weren’t afraid that that [00:11:15] was going to happen. It wasn’t until really closer to the end of 67, 68 when the real draft stuff started.

CROAN: [00:11:25] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, [00:11:30] uh, so you two became unofficially or officially engaged, and then.

Joyce Skinner: [00:11:39] For for. For graduation, it gave me a pearl ring Instead [00:11:45] of you know. And so. Yeah.

CROAN: [00:11:49] Mhm. So you graduated from high school. You are planning to get married eventually. And you know that he is heading to boot camp. I’m assuming he went to, [00:12:00] uh, Great Lakes or did he go to Parris Island?

Joyce Skinner: [00:12:02] No, he went to San Diego.

CROAN: [00:12:04] Oh. He did? Yeah.

CROAN: [00:12:05] Okay. Okay.

Joyce Skinner: [00:12:08] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:12:08] And so that would have been how long after graduation?

Joyce Skinner: [00:12:11] He went in. He went in July after [00:12:15] his birthday. Mhm. A couple weeks after his birthday.

CROAN: [00:12:20] And how old was was he on that birthday. He was.

Joyce Skinner: [00:12:26] 19.

CROAN: [00:12:27] He turned 19in July. Right. [00:12:30] And left for San Diego. Right. And at this point is there a wedding date set? Do you have you guys set a date?

Joyce Skinner: [00:12:37] Uh, no. No. We were just going to be together.

CROAN: [00:12:41] Mhm. Mhm.

Joyce Skinner: [00:12:44] I wish. [00:12:45]I wish that that is probably the one thing someone asked me one time, what is if you could change anything in your life, what would it be? And that would have been either I wouldn’t have let him go, [00:13:00] or we would have gotten married when he was home on leave. He came home in November. The first part of November.

CROAN: [00:13:10] Okay. Of 67?

Joyce Skinner: [00:13:12] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:13:13] Okay.

CROAN: [00:13:15] What [00:13:15] do you remember about seeing him for the first time in November of 67? Were you struck by his appearance at all?

Joyce Skinner: [00:13:22] Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, Marines look cool in their uniforms. I mean, yeah, I mean, you know, you know, sailors look nice in their uniforms, too, [00:13:30] but Marines really look good in their uniforms, and they, you know, they’re so straight and tall and.

Joyce Skinner: [00:13:36] Um. You know, it was just. I mean, it was just wonderful. It was just like, you know, magic there. And [00:13:45] it was like. It was like he was never gone. He was always there. So.

CROAN: [00:13:51] And then how long was he home on leave?

Joyce Skinner: [00:13:54] He was. He left. He left about 30. It was maybe 20, [00:14:00] 25 or 30 days because he left and went back on Thanksgiving. He was going back to San Diego or back to Camp Pendleton, actually.

CROAN: [00:14:10] And how how hard was that for you to to say goodbye, to watch [00:14:15] him leave for Camp Pendleton?

Joyce Skinner: [00:14:17] Oh. That was horrible.

CROAN: [00:14:20] Because you didn’t know at that point when when you’d see him again, right?

Joyce Skinner: [00:14:23] No. And we knew he was going. We knew he was going to Vietnam.

CROAN: [00:14:26] Oh. You did?

Joyce Skinner: [00:14:27] Yeah. He got orders. So we knew that [00:14:30] before he got home. He got orders before he got home from leave.

CROAN: [00:14:36] Oh, so the whole time he was home, he knew he was going to Vietnam. Yeah.

Joyce Skinner: [00:14:40] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:14:41] Oh, that’s an important detail.

Joyce Skinner: [00:14:45] Yeah. [00:14:45]

CROAN: [00:14:46] What did you know about Vietnam at that point.

Joyce Skinner: [00:14:48] You know, not not a lot. You know, I mean, we, you know, you knew it was a war. You know, there weren’t a lot of casualties at [00:15:00] that point. Um.

CROAN: [00:15:03] But right before Tet.

Joyce Skinner: [00:15:05] Yeah. Oh, yeah. About two months before. Three months before Tet.

CROAN: [00:15:10] Mhm.

Joyce Skinner: [00:15:11] Um. I [00:15:15] was scared. I could tell he was scared.

Joyce Skinner: [00:15:19] Um, you know we, we mostly talked about what we were going to do when we get home. You know, um, [00:15:30] that we were going to get married right away and. Uh. You know, where would I go to school? You know, how could I transfer? You know, all those practical, practical things.

CROAN: [00:15:44] Did you guys [00:15:45] consider at all? Did you discuss the possibility of getting married before he went to Vietnam?

Joyce Skinner: [00:15:51] Not really.

CROAN: [00:15:52] No. No.

CROAN: [00:15:54] And his job in the Marine Corps. He was a rifleman. Rifleman?

Joyce Skinner: [00:15:57] Yep. Yep. He was just a grunt.

CROAN: [00:16:00] Yeah, [00:16:00] he was going to be. He was going to be where the fighting was.

Joyce Skinner: [00:16:02] Yeah. And he sure was.

CROAN: [00:16:06] He left at Thanksgiving, and by Christmas, he was. He was there. Right. How often did you hear from him?

Joyce Skinner: [00:16:14] Well, [00:16:15] every day I would go down to the phone in the Commons in college and call my mom. Did I get a letter today? Um. And actually, I really did. He really was good about writing. It might have only been one [00:16:30] page, but he wrote me a lot. I’ve got all his letters. You know, he just would tell me, you know, what was going on. Mostly what he was thinking and what he was feeling.

Joyce Skinner: [00:16:43] Um.

CROAN: [00:16:43] What was he thinking? What was he feeling? [00:16:45]

Joyce Skinner: [00:16:46] Well.

Joyce Skinner: [00:16:50] He he would tell me. Well, he said, you know, he’d tell me about. They’d been out, but they he never quite told me all the details of how awful [00:17:00] it was. Probably was. Um, he would he sent he sent me pictures. He had a camera that he that he would send me film back. And then I would go get the pictures developed. [00:17:15] Uh, he would tell me a lot about the guys that he was with. I mean, they were up on a hill. His company was up on this on Hill 861 a and so. [00:17:30]

Joyce Skinner: [00:17:31] Um.

Joyce Skinner: [00:17:35] You know, you know, other than, you know, getting ambushed and all those awful things, you know. And then he would tell me about, you know, he would tell me about what we’re going to do when he [00:17:45] when he gets home. A lot of them are about, what am I, what we’re going to do when I get home and how many days it was.

Joyce Skinner: [00:17:53] Um.

Joyce Skinner: [00:17:56] And then he got wounded in March.

CROAN: [00:18:00] And [00:18:00] what what do you know about the circumstances of that injury? What?

CROAN: [00:18:04] What happened?

Joyce Skinner: [00:18:05] He, um. It was shrapnel, but shrapnel. Bad enough that they sent him to the hospital ship. To the repos.

CROAN: [00:18:14] The [00:18:15] repos?

Joyce Skinner: [00:18:16] Yes.

CROAN: [00:18:17] And did he write to you from the repos?

Joyce Skinner: [00:18:19] Oh, yeah. He got to write more. And he called me.

CROAN: [00:18:22] He did?

Joyce Skinner: [00:18:24] Yeah.

Joyce Skinner: [00:18:24] That was the greatest thing. Yeah.

CROAN: [00:18:27] So tell me about that.

CROAN: [00:18:28] Somebody I could I could just imagine, [00:18:30] you know what that must have been like for you? What?

Joyce Skinner: [00:18:32] Oh my God. I was so.

Joyce Skinner: [00:18:33] I was so excited. They, they had these like radio operators that would they would get on [00:18:45] this radio operator and operator, and then they would get Ahold of a radio operator in the United States, and then they would then call the person in the US.

CROAN: [00:18:58] Mhm.

Joyce Skinner: [00:18:59] So then [00:19:00] you would, you would say it, say something, then you’d go over and, and then they would, you know, go it was back and forth. You know we didn’t get a lot of talking accomplished because it was you know, they didn’t give you a whole lot of time. [00:19:15]

CROAN: [00:19:15] Because you’re relaying everything. But where where were you? What were you doing when the call came in?

Joyce Skinner: [00:19:19] I was working.

CROAN: [00:19:20] Working where?

Joyce Skinner: [00:19:21] At the bowling alley. At the.

CROAN: [00:19:23] Bowling alley. And he called. He called the bowling alley directly.

Joyce Skinner: [00:19:28] Yeah. Well, he called. He called my parents [00:19:30] house. Uh, my mom then gave him gave the radio operator. The number at the bowling alley. I knew he was going to call because they. Yeah, because the day before they had, um, called and [00:19:45] said they were he was going to call the next day. And so everybody at at the bowling alley knew. So they let me go back in the office and, and and talk. And so, you know, of course [00:20:00] it was at the bowling alley. Sure. Of course I got a job at the bowling alley, you know.

CROAN: [00:20:04] Yeah, yeah.

CROAN: [00:20:06] So, so what do you remember about that conversation?

Joyce Skinner: [00:20:13] I just remember hearing [00:20:15] his voice and just just this really warm feeling, you know, just. It was like he was there with me.

Joyce Skinner: [00:20:30] And, [00:20:30] um you know, of course I had to find out how he was and all that stuff. And, you know, just being able to tell him that I missed him and I loved him and that to hear him say the same things, um, it [00:20:45] was. Yeah, it was great.

CROAN: [00:20:52] I’ll continue my conversation with Joyce Washburn after a short break. The [00:21:00] registry is an online community created by the Dvlmf that connects veterans [00:21:15] of the Vietnam War era with each other by signing up for the registry. You can upload and share stories and images, connect with others who serve during the Vietnam era, and connect your service with people you knew whose names are now on the wall. Join [00:21:30] the community and preserve your legacy or a family member’s by signing up today at vvmf. Org slash registry.

Gary Sinise: [00:21:39] Hello, I’m Gary Sinise, nearly 3 million. Americans served in Vietnam, and more than [00:21:45] 58,000 have their names inscribed on the wall. Those that paid the ultimate price in service to America. Some might ask why the Vietnam War still matters. It matters because more than 58,000 [00:22:00] lives were cut short and their families forever changed. It matters because we should never forget how Vietnam veterans were treated when they came home. A lesson learned so that our current generation of veterans are treated with [00:22:15] respect. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, the organization that built the wall, works to ensure that future generations will understand the war’s impact. I’m asking you to help keep the promise. The wall was built on. [00:22:30] Never forget visit VMF. Org to find out how you can get involved.

CROAN: [00:22:40] On Veterans Day 1996, VMF unveiled an exact replica of the wall. [00:22:45] They could be packed into an 18 Wheeler and hauled to cities and towns all across America. Since then, the Wall that heals has been displayed in nearly 700 communities throughout the nation, spreading the healing legacy of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial to [00:23:00] millions of visitors. If you want to know more about this traveling exhibit and the tremendous impact it can have on a community, check out episode 15 of this podcast. The Wall That Heals and the Mobile Education center that travels with it will [00:23:15] be in Eureka, Illinois, July 13th through 16. To see the rest of this year’s tour schedule, and to learn how you can bring the wall that heals to your town, visit VMF. Org. And [00:23:30] now back to my conversation about Dennis Labajo with his then fiancée, [00:23:45] Joyce Washburn. After he got released, he I’m assuming he went back to his unit.

Joyce Skinner: [00:23:53] Yep. He went right back to the same group.

CROAN: [00:23:56] And where were they then?

Joyce Skinner: [00:23:57] They were up, father. Well, [00:24:00] they were still at Khe Sanh, but just before they moved out to. But they didn’t go someplace safe. They went up closer to the DMZ. He went.

CROAN: [00:24:12] To contain. Right?

Joyce Skinner: [00:24:13] Yes.

Joyce Skinner: [00:24:14] Their base [00:24:15] was not in contain.

CROAN: [00:24:17] Okay.

Joyce Skinner: [00:24:17] They were outside. I imagine they were. I’m assuming they were out in the bush somewhere in the boonies.

CROAN: [00:24:25] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:24:25] Sure. Yeah.

Joyce Skinner: [00:24:26] Yeah. But the day he got killed, they they [00:24:30] were they were up doing, uh, maneuvers up in canton.

CROAN: [00:24:35] Okay. And what day was that?

Joyce Skinner: [00:24:39] That was the 6th of June.

CROAN: [00:24:42] So April. May. June, uh, did you did you hear from him [00:24:45] during that period a lot?

Joyce Skinner: [00:24:46] Yeah. Um, I would I would at least get one letter a week, if not two.

CROAN: [00:24:53] Mhm.

CROAN: [00:24:54] Anything change in the tone of those letters now that he’d been injured, now that he’d been through the siege? [00:25:00]

Joyce Skinner: [00:25:04] Uh. Probably he, he was probably more serious than he was before that, you know. [00:25:15]

CROAN: [00:25:16] Um, I mean, by this time he’s probably lost a few friends.

Joyce Skinner: [00:25:20] I would, I would assume he’s lost several, many friends. Mhm.

Joyce Skinner: [00:25:24] Um. But he didn’t talk about that.

CROAN: [00:25:28] Okay.

Joyce Skinner: [00:25:29] He [00:25:30] didn’t. He really didn’t talk about that. It was more planning.

Joyce Skinner: [00:25:36] You know. It was more planning. Okay, we’re going to get married. And, I don’t know, it was like, I’ll be home on this day and we’re going to get married like a week later. And, [00:25:45] you know, those those really, I mean, that I think that’s what kept him going.

CROAN: [00:25:52] I just love the the duality of that. Right. Yeah.

Joyce Skinner: [00:25:55] You’re right. Yeah.

CROAN: [00:25:56] Romance that you can’t even describe. And then the very, [00:26:00] very intense focus on the practical.

Joyce Skinner: [00:26:02] But I think that he had to have something that he could hold on to.

CROAN: [00:26:05] Sure.

Joyce Skinner: [00:26:06] You know, and I think, you know, I mean.

CROAN: [00:26:09] Did you feel that at the time?

Joyce Skinner: [00:26:14] You know, I think [00:26:15] if I would have known how horrible it was there, I would have been a basket case.

CROAN: [00:26:22] Mhm.

Joyce Skinner: [00:26:22] But I didn’t know How horrible it was.

CROAN: [00:26:27] Well, I mean, by April, May, June of 68, [00:26:30] it’s all over the news. I mean, you’re starting to see, you know.

Joyce Skinner: [00:26:33] Yeah.

Joyce Skinner: [00:26:34] And we had a a classmate was he was a year ahead of us who got killed in February.

CROAN: [00:26:42] Mhm.

Joyce Skinner: [00:26:42] And I went to his funeral and that was, [00:26:45] that was really really hard.

CROAN: [00:26:47] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:26:47] I mean you’re seeing you’re seeing, uh, casualties reported every night. You know, Walter Cronkite by then has come out and said he doesn’t think that there’s a way to win.

Joyce Skinner: [00:26:57] Exactly.

CROAN: [00:26:58] Uh, all [00:27:00] of this, you you still didn’t feel like you had a grip on how how bad things were over there? No.

Joyce Skinner: [00:27:06] You know, I don’t really I, I have since told and said this to people. I said, you know, if I would have known [00:27:15] really what he was going through, I would have been a lot more afraid and a lot scared. More scared than I was.

CROAN: [00:27:25] You were a kid.

Joyce Skinner: [00:27:27] Yeah, I was seven. I was 18 then.

CROAN: [00:27:29] Yeah. [00:27:30] You were a kid.

Joyce Skinner: [00:27:31] I was 18.

CROAN: [00:27:32] But we didn’t talk about how often you wrote him.

Joyce Skinner: [00:27:34] I wrote him every single day.

CROAN: [00:27:36] The whole time he was there.

Joyce Skinner: [00:27:37] Yeah, from the time he went to boot camp until, um, he, you know, till I found [00:27:45] out he was dead. They were on, you know, on patrol, and they were ambushed. Um, it was a firefight. [00:28:00]

CROAN: [00:28:07] Joyce shared with me a first hand account of that firefight written by Jim Keller, a PFC Grenadier in the second squad. Second platoon, Echo [00:28:15] Company, second Battalion of the 26th Marines. According to Keller, who earned a Silver Star that day. Second platoon was assigned to perform a security sweep to the southeast of Cancienne. At [00:28:30] about 11:00 that morning, their entire right flank, three squads of Marines suddenly came under heavy enemy fire automatic weapons interspersed with rocket propelled grenades. The [00:28:45] Marines took cover and hit back with everything they had, but they were dispersed and out of contact with each other. The fighting lasted for several hours. Late [00:29:00] in the afternoon, running low on small arms, ammunition and water, and not knowing whether any help was on the way. The second squad decided to go on the offensive. They attacked a North Vietnamese bunker complex and [00:29:15] Dennis was killed in the assault. Jim Kaler was one of only three members of the second squad to survive that day.

Joyce Skinner: [00:29:33] Um, [00:29:30] Jim told me later he apologized because he said he used Dennis’s rifle. After Dennis was dead, because [00:29:45] he needed a rifle. And I said to him, that’s what he would have wanted you to do. He had no use for it anymore. You know, he would have wanted you to take that rifle. I [00:30:15] was driving across the bridge on the river And all of a sudden I knew there was something wrong. I just had this overwhelming, [00:30:30] my whole body shaking feeling that there’s something wrong. I kept on, you know, driving up and driving home to my parents.

Joyce Skinner: [00:30:43] Um. That [00:30:45] was also the day that Bobby Kennedy was assassinated. So I blamed my feeling on that because that was a, you know, a crazy time. That [00:31:00] was, you know, I mean, that was crazy. And then he died on the sixth. Well, Vietnam was a it’s across the international date.

CROAN: [00:31:10] Line there ahead of us.

Joyce Skinner: [00:31:11] So. Yeah. So on the sixth [00:31:15] would have been the fifth here. I really believed that. I just knew that he was gone. But I didn’t know what? That I didn’t know what it was. So the 10th [00:31:30] of June. Um, the Marines came to his parents house and told them. And then his father called and told my mom, who then [00:31:45] told me.

CROAN: [00:31:48] It must have been hard for you, Joyce, because, uh, as a fiance, you have no status.

Joyce Skinner: [00:31:54] No.

CROAN: [00:31:54] The Marines, if you were married, the Marines would have come to your door.

Joyce Skinner: [00:31:58] Right.

Joyce Skinner: [00:31:59] And I [00:32:00] would have been able to choose things for him and do things. His parents really blamed me for this. Because if I wouldn’t have been [00:32:15] with him when he joined the Marine Corps and I was going to get to go on with my life. It was their way of coping, you know? But, um. Yeah, so was it. Yeah, I had absolutely. You know, I had I had no [00:32:30] status.

CROAN: [00:32:31] Tell me about that.

Joyce Skinner: [00:32:32] Yeah, I mean, it that was that was really, really hard. It still is.

Joyce Skinner: [00:32:43] Um. When [00:32:45] I, I go and read names at the wall, all of these sons and daughters and used to be mothers, there’s not so many of them left anymore. Um, husband [00:33:00] or wives? Most, you know, because there’s only a couple of husbands. But wives, they all have their gold star pin. I can’t wear a gold star pin because I don’t count. And [00:33:15] I think that AI has had as big a loss as they did. I mean, not as big a loss as a mom or a dad, maybe. But I did. I mean, I had a huge [00:33:30] loss. I had a huge hole in my heart. Um, like I said, I lost my future. And, um, I met this, um, I don’t know if. I don’t [00:33:45] know if you’ve ever talked to to Kim p n p I a n. Her father died the day before Dennis did. And she was in front. In front of me the first time we read names. And we [00:34:00] have a friendship and we write back and forth. And when I need to have some support, I always write to Kim because she. She does. And she said, no, Joyce, you deserve a gold star just as much as anybody else. [00:34:15] So she gave me one.

CROAN: [00:34:20] Where was Denny buried?

Joyce Skinner: [00:34:22] He at Fair Plain Cemetery. It’s about a mile and a half from my house. Uh, maybe two miles.

CROAN: [00:34:29] When [00:34:30] he was buried. It was so. It was very close to his birthday.

Joyce Skinner: [00:34:34] Yeah. Pretty close. My parents sent me out to California. I had a really good friend that we [00:34:45] were pen pals, and so they sent me out to spend time with her and to spend time with my aunt and uncle who lived in Merced, California. And I was with them on his birthday, which was really nice. That was [00:35:00] very comforting.

CROAN: [00:35:01] Mhm.

Joyce Skinner: [00:35:03] Um. So but it was, it was, wasn’t long afterwards. It’s funny how people wanted me to do things And. [00:35:15]

Joyce Skinner: [00:35:15] Well. Like go to California for a couple of weeks, you know, um, and go here and go there. Let’s go to the movies, you know, all sorts of, you know, let’s get on with your life, [00:35:30] Joyce. So.

CROAN: [00:35:34] Well. I’m in the direction of your life. You know, you you had a pretty clear idea of what that was going to look like. You guys wrote to each other about it in some detail. Yeah. And [00:35:45] now all of that is. I mean, that that no longer exists as a possibility. How do you cope with that? At 18.

Joyce Skinner: [00:35:54] You just go and do things and and [00:36:00] I never really got over it. I mean, I never really I never had the opportunity to just go through that grieving because everybody had so many other things for me to do. [00:36:15]

CROAN: [00:36:17] Mhm.

Joyce Skinner: [00:36:18] You know, and so about. Uh, ten years ago maybe 12, um, Larry [00:36:30] McCartney, which was one of the guys that when they were, when they were overseas, what they would do is they would trade names with people. If something happens to me, I want you to write to this person. Larry was one of the guys that [00:36:45] Dennis gave my name to. So him and I wrote back and forth for quite a long time. He was from Toledo and he stayed in the Marine Corps forever. Uh, he was coming [00:37:00] up towards Grand Rapids. So he said, hey, let’s go out to supper. And we were we were just talking and, um, talking about Dennis and and, um, he said because he had a really hard time with PTSD. [00:37:15] Larry did. And, and, you know, getting through just life in general. And, um, he said, I knew two people over there that I knew were going to be just fine [00:37:30] when they got home. And one of those was Dennis, because I said to him, you know, I don’t know. I mean, I, you know, you see all these people that how do you know that things would have been this wonderful, perfect, great relationship and life going [00:37:45] on. And then he that’s what he said to me. And then he said to me, you know, Joyce, I maybe I had PTSD, but do you really do you think that maybe you might have had PTSD too, [00:38:00] because you lost everything that day? You lost your whole future? And I looked at him.

Joyce Skinner: [00:38:09] And I just started crying. And I thought, that’s what has [00:38:15] been there all this time. That was what’s always just below the surface. You know, I date somebody, and what would I think in my head if Dennis came home? What would I do? And I always knew I’d go with [00:38:30] Dennis. Always. I never, you know, that was that was always, you know, and, you know, and um, so that was, you know, just kind of below [00:38:45] the surface of my life the whole time. And once he said that to me, things just got crystal clear. And that was when that was when I started doing things and making, you know, going to the wall [00:39:00] and reading his name. And, um.

Joyce Skinner: [00:39:05] You know. Anytime there’s something where you can put somebody’s name in to be remembered or something. I always do that.

Joyce Skinner: [00:39:14] Um. [00:39:15]And, you know, went to the the walls. The walls only been here. The miniature walls been here once. But they had what they called la Michigan twice, which was for [00:39:30] Vietnam veterans to welcome them home. So I volunteered at both of those. Um, and it was it was like, that was what? My life. That was what that was what I was. That was the purpose in my life. You know, I had a lot you know, [00:39:45] I have, you know, I have five kids and, you know, two, three adopted and two biological kids. I’ve been married twice. I got married to the guy that told Dennis, if anything [00:40:00] happens to me, I want you to take care of Joyce. So, of course, we had to get married because he was supposed to take care of me.

CROAN: [00:40:07] I told him that.

Joyce Skinner: [00:40:08] Yeah, he told him that he worked with him at the bowling alley. Um.

CROAN: [00:40:14] Mm. [00:40:15]

Joyce Skinner: [00:40:15] You know, and it wasn’t that. That I cared any less for Bob because he was a great guy, and he was the best friend a girl could ever have. But he was never Dennis.

CROAN: [00:40:27] Yeah.

Joyce Skinner: [00:40:28] Nobody. Nobody’s [00:40:30] ever been him.

CROAN: [00:40:31] Right.

Joyce Skinner: [00:40:32] And he died when he was 45, you know, and left. Me, too. And, um, you know, I thought, well, you know, those two can go up there and just have great conversations. [00:40:45]

CROAN: [00:40:46] Do you remember whether it meant anything at all to Dennis that his birthday was also Independence Day? Did that was that a thing for him? Did he think about it much? Did you think about [00:41:00] it much?

Joyce Skinner: [00:41:00] I did. I said, you know, he he was. You know, he was a hero. That was, you know, born on the 4th of July.

Joyce Skinner: [00:41:13] Um. Didn’t [00:41:15] mean much to him. I’m not sure. I really am not sure. I mean, we always celebrated, you know. Um. But [00:41:30] I don’t know that it. Meant as much to him as it did to me after he was gone.

CROAN: [00:41:42] Mm.

CROAN: [00:41:44] Yeah, I would imagine [00:41:45] the fireworks must be an emotional. If you go to a fireworks show or see a parade or all of that, it must be very emotional for you.

Joyce Skinner: [00:41:54] Well, the most emotional place I can go is to the wall. And I’ll sit down [00:42:00] there and look at my face in his name. And to me that there’s I can’t be any place closer to him than I can be there.

CROAN: [00:42:14] How often do you go? [00:42:15]

Joyce Skinner: [00:42:16] As much as I can.

Joyce Skinner: [00:42:18] Um. You know, when I was in the Navy, I was at the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery, which used to be just up the hill across [00:42:30] from the State Department, up at the old Naval Observatory. You were.

CROAN: [00:42:34] Stationed there for a while.

Joyce Skinner: [00:42:35] I was there. I was there for one of my active duty training. I’d go two, two weeks every year. So I was there, and then I’d go down and sit with Dennis and have lunch. [00:42:45] Um, and I was at Bethesda a couple of times, and then I’d go sit with him and, you know, go down there and, and because that wasn’t really like you could go in ten minutes and go, because Bethesda is a waste. Um, and [00:43:00] I, you know, I’d been there a lot, many times, but late in the last 15 years, once I started reading his name, I went. And when they had you put, um, Christmas [00:43:15] tree ornaments on the Christmas tree. Have you ever been there? When they do that, they have a Christmas tree every December, and people can come and put ornaments for whoever that’s on the wall. So I’ve done that.

Joyce Skinner: [00:43:30] Um. [00:43:30]So, you know, I would say I’m there every couple years.

CROAN: [00:43:38] So you’ve been many, many times.

Joyce Skinner: [00:43:39] Yeah. It’s one of my favorite places.

CROAN: [00:43:43] Is there anything you’d like to say [00:43:45] to him or about him in honor of his of his birthday?

Joyce Skinner: [00:43:51] Well, I will definitely be posting my annual happy Birthday, Dennis. I love you and [00:44:00] always will To the wall. And thank you, all of you, for having that wall of faces, because that is just a just you. It it’s [00:44:15] the it’s wonderful. Um, it’s a just a way to be able to, you know, share. And I’ll and I share things all the time, you know.

CROAN: [00:44:24] Which gives me an idea. Maybe in honor of Dennis’s birthday, [00:44:30] we could all share something. If you’re moved by this story, go to our website dvlmf. Org find the wall of Faces and then look up Dennis’s profile by searching for his last [00:44:45] name. L o b b e z o o. Then scroll down to where it says leave a remembrance. You can leave any message you like there, but whatever you write, don’t [00:45:00] forget to wish him a happy birthday. Joyce joined the military herself in May of 1968, just about three weeks before Denny was killed. [00:45:15] She became a hospital corpsman in the Navy Reserves, which she figured was about as close as she could get to being a marine. She went to boot camp not long after Denny was buried, and she retired from the Navy Reserves after 26 years. We’ll [00:45:30] be back in two weeks with more stories of service, sacrifice and healing. But before then, in just one week, we’re going to put out a little bonus episode. As it turns out, Denny’s time on the hospital ship repose [00:45:45] is the jumping off point for a whole other amazing story, and we’re going to share that with you in between this episode and the next. We’ll see you then.

MUSIC: [00:45:57] It seems the earth has got a agree that [00:46:00] we were meant to be. Forever in love. Forever [00:46:15] in love. Yes I know. So wonderful to be in love again. It’s so wonderful. Forever [00:46:30] you and me. We gon be together. Not together now. Oh. Yes [00:46:45] I know. You and me.

Full Interview with Joyce Washburn

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