Hap Culp: [00:00:21] You [00:00:15] know, when you’re dealing with those tunnels, you never knew for sure what you would run into. You might run into a VC. Yes. But [00:00:30] you might also run in. They had cobras that they’d tie in there. You had those bamboo vipers in there. I’d shot bats off ceilings. They had these weird, the weirdest looking spiders and [00:00:45] stuff in there that I have ever seen in my life. I mean, they were like, they’d stick to the walls and you’d sort of go by them. You’re not going to mess with them. You don’t even know what they are.

CROAN: [00:00:57] That’s Hap Culp. He served as one of the early [00:01:00] leaders of the first Infantry Division’s team of tunnel explorers known as Tunnel Rats. The book The Tunnels of CU Chi, a harrowing account of America’s Tunnel rats in the underground battlefields of Vietnam, describes the tunnels this [00:01:15] way. The underground tunnels of CU Chi were the most complex part of a network that, at the height of the Vietnam War in the mid 60s, stretched from the gates of Saigon to the border with Cambodia. There were hundreds of kilometers [00:01:30] of tunnels connecting villages, districts, and even provinces. They held living areas, storage depots, ordnance factories, hospitals, headquarters, and almost every other facility that was necessary to the pursuit of the war [00:01:45] by South Vietnam’s Communists, and that could be accommodated below ground. In the last episode, Tunnel Rats, Part one, we introduced [00:02:00] you to Hap and the other tunnel rats I met at a recent reunion, including Job Gonzalez.

Job Gonzalez: [00:02:07] You get several levels under, so you go down five feet or so, go over maybe 20ft. Go down. [00:02:15] Go to the right, go to the left. Go down again.

CROAN: [00:02:18] Gary Oatman.

Gary Oatman: [00:02:20] My team. We didn’t throw anything in the tunnel. We went in the tunnel. We searched them first and then we blew them up, which was a little more dangerous [00:02:30] thing, you know.

CROAN: [00:02:32] And Pete Schultz.

Pete Schultz: [00:02:34] I’d roll the sleeves of my shirt all the way up, so the hairs on my arms would stand up, and I could feel any tripwires because you couldn’t [00:02:45] see him.

CROAN: [00:02:47] If you haven’t listened to episode 53 yet, I recommend you stop here and go check that out, because it provides some important context about the enemy’s use of tunnels and the Army’s attempts to neutralize them. In [00:03:00] today’s episode, we’ll zoom in on the personal experiences of these men inside the tunnels. Stick [00:03:15] around.

CROAN: [00:03:31] After [00:03:30] the. Service and sacrifice. 50 years.

CROAN: [00:04:00] This [00:04:00] is episode 54, Tunnel Rats Part two. This episode contains vivid descriptions of combat, including grievous injury and death. It may not be appropriate for younger or more sensitive [00:04:15] listeners. For three weeks in January of 1967, American forces mounted their largest ground operation of the Vietnam War. Operation Cedar Falls was a massive search and destroy mission [00:04:30] designed to wipe out the Iron Triangle, a major stronghold of the Viet Cong northwest of Saigon. It was during Operation Cedar Falls that American troops were forced to deal with the VC’s vast complexes of underground tunnels [00:04:45] in the area. Here’s another excerpt from the book The Tunnels of CU Chi. By the time of Cedar Falls, the Tunnel Rats and various units were refining techniques of exploration and destruction. The problem [00:05:00] in that operation was that because the tunnels were discovered so often, too many untrained and inexperienced men went underground. Consequently, there were mishaps that resulted in non-combat deaths. A private in the [00:05:15] fourth Battalion of the 503rd Infantry Regiment, for example, suffocated to death on 22nd January because an earlier grenade explosion had burned up all the oxygen in a tunnel. Several ad hoc tunnel rats lost their bearings and [00:05:30] came up to the surface completely lost. On one occasion, two separate tunnel teams were exploring the same system independently, and only good luck prevented their shooting at each other underground. It was in the wake of Operation [00:05:45] Cedar Falls that tunnel rat duty in the big Red one was transferred to the first Engineer Battalion, where men began to specialize in it. They quickly evolved into a very tight knit and elite group. So much so that they had their own unofficial insignia made. [00:06:00] It featured a grey rat holding a pistol in one hand and a flashlight in the other. Known officially as the Die Hard Tunnel Rats, their motto was the Latinized phrase non gratum anus rodentium, meaning [00:06:15] not worth a rat’s ass. Phil Hoag spent more than 30 years in the Army, including deployments in Korea and in Vietnam, where he served as the executive officer of the first Engineer Battalion.

Phil Hoag: [00:06:30] They [00:06:30] were all volunteers. They were a very unique group of people. They were probably the most courageous soldiers I ever served with.

CROAN: [00:06:41] Phil isn’t the only one who viewed the Tunnel Rats as unique. General [00:06:45] Bernard Rogers, who was an assistant commander of the big Red one, described the tunnel rat this way. Hot, dirty and gasping for breath, he squeezed his body through narrow and shallow openings on all fours, never knowing [00:07:00] whether the tunnel might collapse behind him or what he might find ahead. Around the next turn, and sensing the jolt of adrenaline at every sound. Surely this modern combat spelunker is a special breed. The [00:07:15] Tunnel Rats quickly developed their own mystique, which a certain breed of soldier found irresistible. Terry Heusser led a platoon of combat engineers in the same battalion.

Terry Heusser: [00:07:27] I had a couple of my guys say, I want to be a tunnel rat, [00:07:30] and you had to be in country like six months before you could be a tunnel rat. They wanted you to get used to what the country was and everything and what they were doing. These are these are some of the finest [00:07:45] people I’ve ever met. Some of the bravest people I’ve ever met.

CROAN: [00:07:50] Leading the group were lieutenants and sergeants who got dirty just like everybody else. And that was by design. Here’s Phil Hogue again.

Phil Hoag: [00:07:59] The leadership [00:08:00] had to be extremely, extremely good. And by that, by that, I mean the leader had to be in front of these men. They couldn’t lead from behind. They had to be the expert. And Sergeant Batten was truly the expert, truly [00:08:15] the one that they would follow. Uh, Gary. Lieutenant Gary Oldman was another and later, uh, Lieutenant Colt. Uh, but selecting the lieutenant and selecting the sergeant sergeants for that kind of experience was extremely difficult. [00:08:30]

CROAN: [00:08:31] I met several men at the Tunnel Rats reunion at the College of the Ozarks, but there were four who were treated with an extra measure of respect by the other attendees. The four who were referred to as the True Tunnel Rats. They [00:08:45] are Joe Gonzalez, Pete Schultz, Gary Oatman, and Hap Culp. After a short break, we’ll hear personal stories from each of them. Stick around. The [00:09:00] registry is [00:09:15] an online community created by Vvmf that connects veterans of the Vietnam War era with each other. By signing up for the registry, you can upload and share stories and images, connect with others who served during the Vietnam era, and connect your service [00:09:30] with people you knew whose names are now on the wall. Join the community and preserve your legacy or a family member’s by signing up today at vvmf. Org slash registry.

Ann Margaret: [00:09:43] Hi, I’m [00:09:45] Ann Margaret. I went to Vietnam to entertain the troops in 1966 and 1968. My guys, my gentlemen, If you live through the Vietnam War era, you know the impact [00:10:00] that the war had. But today we are in danger of history being lost. Current generations know very little about the war or the people who served. As more of our Vietnam vets pass away each day, [00:10:15] their stories are being lost to history. Together we can change that. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund is the organization that built the wall. It works to ensure that future generations will understand [00:10:30] the war’s impact. Let’s help keep the promise that the wall was built on. Never forget. Visit vmf.org to find out how you can get involved.

CROAN: [00:10:44] On Veterans [00:10:45] Day 1996, VMF unveiled an exact replica of the wall that could be packed into an 18 Wheeler and hauled to cities and towns all across America. Since then, the Wall that Heals has been displayed in nearly 700 communities throughout the nation, [00:11:00] spreading the healing legacy of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial to millions of visitors. If you want to know more about this traveling exhibit and the impact it can have on a community, check out episode 15 of this podcast. The [00:11:15] Wall That Heals and the Mobile Education center that travels with it will be in Kalispell, Montana, June 22nd through 25, and Meridian, Idaho, June 29th through July 2nd. To see the rest of this year’s tour schedule, [00:11:30] and to learn how you can bring the wall that heals to your town, visit ivmf.org.

Pete Schultz: [00:11:51] You [00:11:45] went down in a tunnel. You didn’t know if you were coming back.

CROAN: [00:11:56] At six foot one and 164 pounds. Pete Schultz didn’t quite [00:12:00] fit the typical profile of a tunnel rat, but after training with Robert Batten, who was being shipped home after three consecutive tours, Pete took over as the team’s NCO in charge.

Pete Schultz: [00:12:12] You know, the unknown is [00:12:15] a terrible thing. You didn’t know if you were going to get bit by a snake. You didn’t know if you were going to see a VC around the corner. You didn’t know what I mean. I used to go down in [00:12:30] the tunnel and you could hear, ha ha. And what it was was the VC had jammed bamboo vipers into the roof of the tunnel so that [00:12:45] when you’d crawl by, you know, you’d, uh. Get bit in the back. I mean, they set booby traps on booby traps on booby traps. It was incredible. [00:13:00] You’d be crawling along and all of a sudden the floor would feel shaky. There was a punji pit there. You’d have to go all the way around. I have to get up against the side and move around. [00:13:15] Then, you know, it was business as usual. Clear tunnels. There were some of them. I couldn’t. I couldn’t get in because I was so big. But there were some that [00:13:30] I could stand up and walk in and couldn’t touch the sides. They were big.

CROAN: [00:13:40] What was it that made them able to hold up structurally? [00:13:45] Was it because they.

Pete Schultz: [00:13:46] Were clay type of ground? They were dug in? It was a laterite clay mixture. Laterite is a real fine rock and it’s almost like sandstone. [00:14:00] But it’s not sandstone because you can dig it. Mhm. That’s where the clay comes in. And you can mold it. And it was all arched. And [00:14:15] I mean incredible. Just incredible the way they dug this stuff. Very few cave ins. Just their [00:14:30] architecture for the hospital. All right. We blew it up. But they had rooms that were wide enough. I could stand up in there, and I couldn’t touch [00:14:45] the walls. No center structural supports whatsoever. Now, how they How they mounted those lights. They didn’t have stands for them. So. [00:15:00] But they had lights, they had generators. They had everything down there that a normal hospital would have, including ventilation. Mhm.

CROAN: [00:15:12] And how far below the surface are we talking about.

Pete Schultz: [00:15:14] Well [00:15:15] this was three stories below. Oh my god.

CROAN: [00:15:23] Pete what was the most what was the most surprising thing you ever found in a tunnel?

Pete Schultz: [00:15:29] Surprising. [00:15:30] Yeah. I mean.

CROAN: [00:15:33] A doctor.

Pete Schultz: [00:15:34] A doctor. And I tried to cut her throat. I’d shot every bullet I had, so I didn’t have any more [00:15:45] ammunition. I chased her through a tunnel, and her hair was running back, and I tried grabbing her hair a couple times and I ran into a wall because now you got to remember, there’s [00:16:00] no light. And what? It’s in the book called The Tunnels of CU Chi. And she said, the largest man I have ever seen [00:16:15] chased me through a tunnel, wanting to kill me. And that was me.

CROAN: [00:16:24] How do you know she was a doctor?

Pete Schultz: [00:16:27] I didn’t, you didn’t?

CROAN: [00:16:28] No. You found out later?

Pete Schultz: [00:16:29] I found out later [00:16:30] when I read the book.

CROAN: [00:16:31] So had you known she was a doctor, you probably wouldn’t.

Pete Schultz: [00:16:33] I would have killed her anyway because she was underground. And they are absolute enemies. And she was a fully functioning person. Yeah. [00:16:45]Yeah.

CROAN: [00:16:49] How many times do you think you went down.

Pete Schultz: [00:16:52] And tunnels? Yeah, roughly every day.

CROAN: [00:16:58] Every day. For how long? [00:17:00]

Pete Schultz: [00:17:01] Four months. I was only a tunnel rat for six months. And I spent two years in Nam.

CROAN: [00:17:15] Exploring [00:17:15] tunnels was highly dangerous work in the best of circumstances. But the threat of running into an enemy who felt cornered raised the stakes considerably. It was Sergeant Robert Baten who developed the procedures and techniques that would be widely adopted [00:17:30] by the tunnel rats of the first Engineering Battalion of the big Red one. Jobe Gonzalez was one of the tunnel Rats who learned from and served with Baten directly.

Job Gonzalez: [00:17:41] I pretty much know the outcome if I do it correctly. [00:17:45] You know, my mindset was more that the more I listened to Batman, that the better I felt about who was going to come out on top. So.

CROAN: [00:18:00] Mm. [00:18:00]

CROAN: [00:18:01] So how long did you have to train with Batman before you, before you put it into action?

Job Gonzalez: [00:18:07] I think about a week.

CROAN: [00:18:08] A week?

Job Gonzalez: [00:18:09] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:18:10] Okay.

Job Gonzalez: [00:18:11] You got you got to think that most [00:18:15] of the tunnels we went into, um, the infantry had been there. So if there were, uh, if we discovered a tunnel, most of the the VC did not want to fight you, you know, they did not want to. They didn’t want to [00:18:30] come at you, you know, they just assumed retreat to another place. The only it’s like any other, uh, combatant. You don’t really want to get into a fight unless you think you’re going to win. You know, you find, uh, rifles, you find [00:18:45] ammunition, you find food, rice, sometimes first aid kits, you know? You know that it’s a station where they can bring wounded people, take care of them. But most surprising was [00:19:00] found this looked like a car ignition coil. I don’t know what you know what that is, okay. And a 12 volt battery. And it had a wire that came out, I think, on two sides, and [00:19:15] it had a pencil or maybe two pencils. I think it was two pencils, I said. So I asked the chuzhoy I said, what? What is this? He says, make a. And finally I figured out what it [00:19:30] was. It was actually arcing the 20,000V that you can develop out of a coil, arcing it because it would arc, but it wouldn’t be a lot of amperage in there. So arc and heat up and solder things. And [00:19:45] I thought, man, it it looks like it works, but that’s pretty ingenious for them to be able to, you know, not have the equipment, but they make the equipment and, you know, and it works.

CROAN: [00:19:58] And the pencils were for what.

Job Gonzalez: [00:19:59] The, [00:20:00] the carbon in them for arcing.

CROAN: [00:20:02] I mean, it had to be it had to be terrifying.

Job Gonzalez: [00:20:05] It was, it was there was a lot of tension. I mean, it was so much tension that, um. He [00:20:15] could you could almost snap at something, you know what I’m saying? You could you could see a hole or something and just start firing, you know, just because that was that was how tight you were. Yeah. Yeah, [00:20:30] you were. You were so tight. I’m getting it a little. I’m. Thinking about it. But, uh. [00:20:45]

CROAN: [00:20:46] Describe. Can you do you mind? I mean, just describe the feeling that you’re talking about.

Job Gonzalez: [00:20:51] Is kind of a choking. Uh. It’s [00:21:00] like going somewhere. I don’t want to go. Now, you asked me about some experiences, like one [00:21:15] that I can. I feel, you know, okay. About. Um, one was, uh, I was lowered into a tunnel. That was actually a. Well, it [00:21:30] was a hole, and it looked like a well. So, uh, Peter Schultz was there, and they were lowering me into it, and I had my 45, and they were saying more, you know, and we were talking to me. And as [00:21:45] I’m dropping it, as they’re dropping me, uh, I’m talking to him. And suddenly he said, I stopped talking so he, you know, yelled at me again, yelled at me again, nothing. They pulled me out and [00:22:00] I was basically is what do you call it? Suffocated. And I don’t.

CROAN: [00:22:06] Know. You were.

Job Gonzalez: [00:22:07] Unconscious. I was unconscious, yeah. And they pumped me and, uh, uh. Somebody [00:22:15] said later somebody. Oh, yeah. The infantry had thrown a grenade down there. It probably used up all the air. I don’t know that that’s true, because I’ve looked up and it would be hard to displace air and not, you know, replace it. [00:22:30] So I don’t know how true it was, but whatever, I didn’t I passed out down there. And, uh, it’s kind of one of those things that you expect, but it, it kind [00:22:45] of shook me enough that, uh, I thought what I had done was I dropped my pistol. You never want to drop your firearm wherever you are, you know. And. And I said, put me back [00:23:00] down. I’m going to get go get it. And he was like, no, we’re not putting you back down there. I said, I’ll hold my breath. You know, but I want to go. You know, it was like an embarrassment that I. What a fuck up. [00:23:15] And I don’t know.

CROAN: [00:23:19] Gary Oldman arrived in Vietnam in the fall of 67, and was one of the earliest second lieutenants to lead the die hard tunnel rats.

Gary Oldman: [00:23:27] Somebody shot at me. I had no problem shooting back. [00:23:30] Sure. I didn’t want to take the first shot. I mean, I had to be sure they were the bad guys. Yeah. And, um, I think it just was something natural about it [00:23:45] for me. I liked I liked being a soldier, and I liked, uh, Leading the men and bringing them home safe. And I took pride in doing a good job. We were always prepared because you were looking for anything. [00:24:00] You know, uh, we were over a quarter of a mile underground in this tunnel and and just hooked up some more wire to keep going another quarter mile. And I dropped somebody at each place where we came to [00:24:15] a tunnel going in another direction. But we came to a T, so we had two directions. So I told Baton to go to a right hold to hold that position. And I was going to go around the left and, and uh, I [00:24:30] no sooner started going left and they opened up on baton with a semiautomatic and probably not any further away than here to the corner over there. Pretty darn close. Bullets flying like crazy. Full automatic AK [00:24:45] 47, I assume. And he’s firing back with his pistol, and we’re both trying to back back where we came from, and we’re bumping our butts, and he’s cussing at me to move out of the way, and I’m cussing him. Finally, I just quit [00:25:00] and said, get on in there. And he got in there and one of us had to give in. And then I got, you know, I got in and, uh, and I started firing mine because I was up front then.

Gary Oldman: [00:25:11] Then I reloaded and he started firing his again. [00:25:15] And I found inside. This is not going anywhere. They got us. They got us outgunned. And they know we’re here and they can see us and we can’t see them. We turned our lights out. But, uh, I really didn’t want to turn them on because, you know, they just shot em out. [00:25:30] So I said, all right, we’re going to pull. And the guys that we dropped behind, they’re in panic ville because they don’t know what’s going on up where we’re at and what is all that shooting. But they can hear it. Yeah, they can hear it. And so they’re, you know, uh, and a couple of them are fairly [00:25:45] new. And I thought they’re going to be really scared of the death. So I passed the word back. Keep, you know, call to them, call them by name. Let them know you’re coming out so they don’t shoot you by mistake because they’re probably panicky. So [00:26:00] we’re crawling out, and I was bringing up the rear. Sometimes I did stuff like that. We took turns, you know. I didn’t like to have my men do anything I wouldn’t do. So I in that particular time I took, I decided I’d bring up the rear. [00:26:15] And we got all everybody got out and they reached down to pull me out. And somebody yelled for a medic, and I had blood all over my head, and I didn’t know it.

Gary Oldman: [00:26:24] You know, I thought it was just sweat. And of course, you’re just perspiring, soaking wet. We went out a [00:26:30] whole lot faster than we went in. You know, we flew out of there and, uh, so they took me over to the medics, and he poured. He wiped it off, poured some iodine, and it went down and got in my eye. And then I was really wanting to smack him. And, [00:26:45] uh, And he started tagging me for a Purple Heart and somebody said, they want you on the radio. So I go get on the radio and it’s the deputy brigade division commander. And he my, my call sign was Die Hard two [00:27:00] six, but I made my own up rat six. And I you know, I answered, this is rat six. And and, uh. He said, I do not want you to go back in that tunnel. I [00:27:15] told him what had happened. He said, blow it up. You know, you put all the charges you can and blow it up. But do not go back in that tunnel. And, of course, you know, a little bit relieved, but I had already worked out my plan. But when the general said, [00:27:30] do not go back in, I was I thought, that’s a good idea, you know, because I didn’t know whether my idea would work or not. So we blew it up and, uh, everything we could. And then they had us go back out again the next day [00:27:45] and they brought bulldozers out and were trying to dig it up because we’d.

CROAN: [00:27:50] Same same.

Gary Oldman: [00:27:51] Tunnel. Same tunnel when we went in. Right. As soon as we went in, we found a couple ammo boxes and. And nobody [00:28:00] wanted to open them because it could have been booby trapped. And so I sent everybody back, you know, and I looked at one of the guys and said, you want to open it? And I said, whose turn is it? And they all said, it’s your turn. So I looked all over it, [00:28:15] you know, and I told everybody, get away, and it’s either going to kill you or it’s not. You know, I didn’t I don’t know something, but I was crazy, I guess. And I lift that little lever up in the side and nothing happened. I pulled out a little lid up, you know, real slow, and nothing happened. [00:28:30] And it was full of paperwork, you know, just Vietnamese. And I closed it up and opened the other one up and the same thing. So they took it and sent it to the G-2. And it turned out to be a whole lot of identifying all the local VC [00:28:45] that, you know, we’re acting like they were good guys. And it had. Apparently, it was pretty good information. They got real excited. So they wanted to come back the next day and dig up what we blew up.

CROAN: [00:28:58] Hap Culp took over [00:29:00] the leadership of the die hard Tunnel Rats at the end of Gary Oatman’s tour.

Hap Culp: [00:29:04] Uh, as far as the VC, um, I never had any of them shoot at me, but, you know, you knew they were in there like that one guy that threw the grenade at [00:29:15] us. He was there, but he had gotten out because he knew we were going to come in at him. Um, but, I mean, he’d thrown a grenade. And somehow or other, he got by the [00:29:30] infantry. I don’t know how he did it, but. And then I, uh. Let’s see, I’d gone into some others that you knew that they were there.

CROAN: [00:29:39] The story doesn’t take place in the tunnels, although he spent as much time in them as anyone. [00:29:45] But I think it’s an important reminder that these guys were combat engineers all of the time, in and out of the tunnels. Whether they were clearing a road, destroying a bridge, building a tower, or just moving from one place to another, [00:30:00] they had to be ready to fight.

Hap Culp: [00:30:04] We used to be sent out to do recon work, too, besides the tunnel rats. And, um, 13 days before I came home from Vietnam, [00:30:15] they called me up and they said, Hap, we need you and some of your crew to go out. It was raining real hard and the roads were being flooded. And we need you to go out and check the roads and make sure we can run the convoys. So [00:30:30] I start out and there’s, um, three of us that were going to go, and there was a fourth guy.

CROAN: [00:30:38] Spec for Michael Klein was a clerk typist with the first Engineering Battalion.

Hap Culp: [00:30:43] And he needed to [00:30:45] go visit his family in Hawaii for R&R. He was going to meet them there, but he couldn’t get a flight out because the helicopters couldn’t fly. It [00:31:00] was raining that bad and he said, hey, can I go with you? He was our, uh, clerk typist, is what he was a really nice young kid, 19 nice young kid. And I said, well, yeah, if you want to, Mike, [00:31:15] I can give you a ride down to Zion. We’re going all the way down there. Well, we get right outside of the base. We stop, I get out of the truck, start to walk [00:31:30] down the highway. I look back at him and he said, I can come with you and I’ll help you measure where the roads being flooded. And I said, well, Mike, you you know, you don’t have to. He goes, oh, no, I’ll be glad to. I’ll help. So I get out, [00:31:45] I start to walk away. I look back and I look at Mike. He’s smiling at me and happy and and boom, he disappears and I get blown down the highway. And I all I can remember is everything [00:32:00] went black. I started going in, like, slow motion, being blown down the highway.

Hap Culp: [00:32:06] You can see I’m, uh. And, uh, I don’t know how long I laid on the highway, but I got up, pulled [00:32:15] out my pistol, and of course, that’s useless. I go back, there’s a medevac comes in, they pick up the two [00:32:30] other guys, and they say, hey, you, come on. And I went, no, I’m not, I’m not going. I have to find Klein and, um. I [00:32:45] go out into the rice paddy looking for client, expecting to find his body. I don’t find his body. I find two legs and a spinal cord. I pull that [00:33:00] back to the road and some jeep pulls up. I have no idea who they were or anything like that. And I leaned over and I was holding my head and he goes, are you getting sick? And I said, no, I’m not getting sick. [00:33:15] I’ve seen plenty of this stuff, but my head hurts. They take me back to the aid station. I’ve had an eardrum blown out and this and that, and it was just like the more [00:33:30] emotions gone, just gone. And it’s like, well, you know, I can’t. I don’t deal emotions anymore. They’re gone. But you know, the thing that.

Hap Culp: [00:33:43] That would get [00:33:45] to you. He’d have these in the eyes because they’re still open, you know. And they look at you, but there’s no life to them. And the eyes would get to you. That’s that’s what would really get to you. I [00:34:00] somebody asked me about hunting one time, and I said, no, I don’t hunt. I don’t like the eyes there. Towards the end, I just shut down. And I think Batman was pretty [00:34:15] much the same. You’re going to make me cry and I don’t cry.

CROAN: [00:34:21] Have you been to the wall?

Hap Culp: [00:34:23] Yes. Once

CROAN: [00:34:25] When you went there, was there anybody in particular whose name?

Hap Culp: [00:34:29] Mike Clines. And [00:34:30] the strange thing about that one is I went there and the book, it was open to the page where my client’s name was.

CROAN: [00:34:43] That is weird.

Hap Culp: [00:34:44] Yeah. [00:34:45] No, whatever you want to draw from that, I don’t know, but they was open to that page. No kidding. Yeah.

CROAN: [00:35:00] Michael [00:35:00] Kenneth Klein was killed in action on October 20th, 1968, just five weeks shy of his 22nd birthday. He’s memorialized on the wall at panel 40 West, line seven. According [00:35:15] to the book The Tunnels of CU Chi, Sergeant Robert Batton was assigned to the Tunnel Rats from the very beginning and volunteered for two extra tours of duty, staying in Vietnam for three years. The [00:35:30] Viet Cong kept a list of their ten most wanted American service members. Most of them were generals. Batman was the only enlisted man on that list. According to the website of AmVets post 35in Crestview, Florida. [00:35:45] Robert Bob the Batman baton passed away in 2003. I’ll close with another excerpt from the book, The Tunnels of CU Chi with Artillery [00:36:00] and airstrikes using high explosives, chemical defoliants and CS gas, the Americans pounded the surface while below whole battalions of regional and regular communist troops waited patiently. It was an extraordinary triumph of the primitive [00:36:15] in a decade that saw man walking on the moon.

CROAN: [00:36:24] We’ll be back in two weeks with more stories of service, sacrifice and healing. We’ll [00:36:30] see you then.

No video interviews are available for this episode.