Cindy Stonebreaker: [00:00:05] Even at a small age. We knew with that little blue car meant, and I can still vividly see the little blue car with the yellow words on it that said, US Air Force and [00:00:15] as as kids being out in the yard playing. If one of those cars went down the road, we knew what it meant and we were actually outside playing when that car pulled into our driveway.

Tony Cordero: [00:00:30] The [00:00:30] squadron commander and the Catholic chaplain came to our house off base, and you got the proverbial knock on the door, and some kind family took the four of us kids and scuttled us away. And mom spoke with the [00:00:45] adults, and, um, was told by the squadron commander that it probably would be a very long time before there was any answer.

Sandy O’Day: [00:00:56] It was day after Christmas. The green car pulls up. And, [00:01:00] um, I just remember the doorbell ringing, my mom answering the door. She let out a cry, and my brother came up behind her and told the guys to go away. That this is not this is not true. And that’s when they handed the telegraph [00:01:15] that they were trying to read to my mom, and she gathered us kids around and she just said, you know, this is a telegraph. I don’t know if this is true, but this is what it says, and I’m not going to believe it until I see your dad.

Brian Murphy: [00:01:32] They [00:01:30] knew to to notify my dad at the police station when Dick had been wounded before. I think it was just a Marina. Two Marines went to the station this [00:01:45] time. You know, it was a marine and a priest. And I think my dad, you know, his shoulders just had to have dropped at the side of the most Gold Star families when they see the car pull up or somebody [00:02:00] coming up to the door, they got an idea. There’s no words necessary.

CROAN: [00:02:18] That [00:02:15] was Cindy Stonebreaker, Tony Cordero, Sandy O’Day and Brian Murphy each remembering the day their families were notified that something tragic had happened in Vietnam. For [00:02:30] the tens of thousands of families who received the news that someone they love was wounded or missing or killed in action, their lives are divided at that moment, theirs before they received the news and theirs after. Well, imagine [00:02:45] being the person whose duty it was to split someone’s universe in two. The person who drove the car and rang the doorbell. That is someone’s job in the military. And today we’ll hear from two Marines who came home from fighting in Vietnam and [00:03:00] then were assigned that terrible duty. Stick around. From the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, founders of the wall. This [00:03:15] is echoes of the Vietnam War. I’m your host, Michael Croan, bringing you stories of service, sacrifice, and healing from people who still feel the impact of that conflict. More than 50 years later. This [00:03:45] is episode 51. No words necessary. Ron Morgan grew up in Michigan, and after finishing college in order to avoid the draft, he joined the Marine Corps. Like all Vietnam [00:04:00] veterans, Ron’s life has largely been defined by the time he spent in country. But that isn’t the only period of his life that left a deep mark on him. When his war was over, he found himself stateside with what has to be one of the worst jobs in the world. He [00:04:15] joined me via zoom from his home in Charlotte. You joined the Marine Corps in 1966?

Ron Morgan: [00:04:22] Yes. Graduated from Michigan State in summer of 66 and then went to marine OCS in [00:04:30] August of 66.

CROAN: [00:04:32] And when you went to Michigan State, was it your intention to join the service after?

Ron Morgan: [00:04:36] Uh. No, sir. But we back then, we were all facing the draft upon college graduation, and, um, uh, [00:04:45] I walked into the Michigan State Student Union one day, uh, one afternoon with a buddy of mine and, uh, the officer selection officer, Captain Norbert Beckmann. I’ll never forget him. He was in his dress blues. Had the [00:05:00] had a neck about as thick as his head, you know, and he was surrounded by some protesters sitting sitting around his booth. And so my buddy and I sort of stepped through the protesters and started talking [00:05:15] to him. And lo and behold, that afternoon we took the oath that afternoon. Yep. Wow.

CROAN: [00:05:20] Did you discuss it with your family first?

Ron Morgan: [00:05:22] Uh, no. I didn’t want to be enlisted in the Army. Mhm. And, uh, the appeal of [00:05:30] the dress blues was, uh, pretty strong. Sure. Yeah.

CROAN: [00:05:34] Yeah. So, um, you said you went to OCS, uh, and then received your commission from there?

Ron Morgan: [00:05:42] Yeah. We had, uh, we were OCS [00:05:45] for, uh. What was it, 12 weeks back then? Mhm. Um, and then, um, got our commission in November uh, 66, and then, uh, went to the basic school, uh, [00:06:00] for five months after OCS.

CROAN: [00:06:03] And where was that?

Ron Morgan: [00:06:05] In Quantico.

CROAN: [00:06:06] Quantico. Right, right.

Ron Morgan: [00:06:07] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:06:10] And, uh, so what happened after basic school?

Ron Morgan: [00:06:14] Well, [00:06:15] uh, uh, 25 days leave and, uh, right to Vietnam. Wow. Uh, the, uh, at that time, there was a very strong need for lieutenants because there was a pretty low [00:06:30] survival rate, I guess. And so they needed a lot of lieutenants, mostly. Oh three and our, uh, infantry and artillery. So, uh, five of us, uh, uh, were the first to show up from our class at the very, uh, [00:06:45] the very end of April 67th.

CROAN: [00:06:50] That was your arrival in Vietnam?

Ron Morgan: [00:06:52] Yes, sir.

CROAN: [00:06:55] What do you remember about arriving there?

Ron Morgan: [00:06:57] Uh. Hot. Dusty. [00:07:00] Uh, we were in, uh, Danang, and it’s one of the main, uh, airstrips, uh, for the Marines and, and Air Force. Uh, and, uh, we stayed in a Quonset [00:07:15] hut alongside the airfield. A lot of noise all night long. And then next day, uh, five of us went into the, uh, another Quonset hut, and a young lance corporal was assigning us to our our unit’s, [00:07:30] uh, little side story. The, uh, uh, the lance corporal said I have one spot for Third Force Recon. Um, and, uh, Heinz Altmeyer, one of our classmates, [00:07:45] um, raised his hand right away. He was a real stud. He was one of the athletic studs of our class. Uh, and then, as a side note, ten days later, he was dead. He was killed on his first patrol. [00:08:00] Mhm. Wow. Anyway, then I got assigned to, uh, first Battalion, fourth Marines. Um, and, uh, in a couple of days, I was up at the glen [00:08:15] on the, on the DMZ, uh, with my new platoon. Well, for the first month, we sort of sat at Glen, uh, taking incoming artillery and rocket [00:08:30] fire from across the border, uh, from across the DMZ, across the river. Um, and we did very little patrolling initially, then finally went out onto the DMZ, the strip, if you will, [00:08:45] the strip that was bulldozed between, uh, Glen Jalen and Kantian and, uh. It was it was unique. I mean, I had a I had a good group of guys, uh [00:09:00] uh uh, some that had been a lot, uh, a lot of them were, you know, veterans have been there, you know, almost a year.

CROAN: [00:09:10] Do you remember anything in particular that you, uh, that you learned from them? [00:09:15]

Ron Morgan: [00:09:16] Uh, to remain calm, to remain calm.

CROAN: [00:09:22] So if you got there, you said you got there in April, and Marines do 13 months.

Ron Morgan: [00:09:29] Correct.

CROAN: [00:09:29] So [00:09:30] you were there for Tet?

Ron Morgan: [00:09:33] Yes. Uh, during the actual Tet Offensive, we were, uh, 25 miles west of highway, uh, acting as security [00:09:45] for, uh, some artillery units. Army one 175 guns and marine 155 self-propelled guns, and they were firing into the A Shau Valley. And [00:10:00] we we were at several different sites out out that way protecting the, the the artillery uh groups. And then later on we came back to Camp Evans, uh, south [00:10:15] away. So I spent my entire time in, in, uh, in the I Corps region. Uh, started at Jilin and then finished at canton. Mhm.

CROAN: [00:10:29] And, [00:10:30] uh. When you came home, was it, uh, were you injured or was it just your 13 months were up?

Ron Morgan: [00:10:38] Yeah, 13 months was up. I was not wounded. I was, uh, cut and from falling several [00:10:45] other times, but I was fortunate to never, never be wounded, but came home, uh, uh, in May. Uh, on uh, had leave, obviously in my hometown, my home in Michigan, [00:11:00] uh, on the way to Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, uh, where I was, uh, uh, first a platoon commander in, uh, in Fox Fox two six, second Battalion, [00:11:15] sixth Marines. And then we went on a, uh, got married in September of 68, uh, and then left shortly thereafter for a cruise in the Mediterranean, uh, for, [00:11:30] uh, what, four months? And down there I became, uh, the XO. Executive officer, HMS company. Then I became the commanding officer of HMS company. Uh, you’re [00:11:45] you’re.

CROAN: [00:11:45] A captain by this time.

Ron Morgan: [00:11:47] Uh, not. I can’t remember the date when I was a captain, but, uh. Uh, I wasn’t promoted to captain until. Until I got up on independent [00:12:00] duty. I was thinking about them making the Marine Corps career, um, and, uh, but I wanted to try something other than a Fleet Marine Force duty. So they came [00:12:15] up with this idea that, oh, gee, we got this billet for an assistant inspector instructor up in Flint, Michigan. Well, that was appealing to me because, uh, Flint was my, you know, uh, I’d grown [00:12:30] up in Michigan. My hometown was a couple of hours from Flint and I. Of course, I went to school in East Lansing. So, uh, and in an effort to find out more about the Marine Corps, I took this job as an assistant inspector instructor. [00:12:45] Um, and it was a Delta first Battalion, 24th Marines that were up there, the reserves that were up there. Uh, but anyway, I, I guess I knew this beforehand, but, uh, uh, [00:13:00] when I got there, I realized that the priority of my assignment and my job was to be the casualty affairs officer for that part of the state. Uh, that’s [00:13:15] how I got involved in all the casualty affairs work, uh, from, uh, May of 69 through November 1970.

CROAN: [00:13:28] What kind of preparation did you have [00:13:30] for that duty?

Ron Morgan: [00:13:33] Uh, none. I went on one casualty call with a major Johnson. The the inspector instructor was John Slater. Later, Colonel Slater, [00:13:45] um, and I went on one call with him, uh, to assist, and then, uh, he said, Ron, it’s all yours. So I took over, uh, those those calls, [00:14:00] but there was no I mean, they were, I guess I don’t remember reading very much, but I guess they were regulations. There was an understanding of what how it had to be done, how it should be done. Uh, but it was [00:14:15] just, uh, uh, OJT. Yeah. Yeah. I often say, I met the I met the best of people, and I met the worst of people, um, in that 18 month period. People [00:14:30] that, uh, obviously everybody. Everybody grieves and everybody grieves in a different way. But, uh, uh Most of my experiences [00:14:45] that the the families, the parents of the young men were, were, uh, mostly honored by their service and sacrifice. Mostly not [00:15:00] all. Um, uh, but, uh, so there were some really, really good people that were very, uh, uh, uh, accepting [00:15:15] of us, uh, because one of the requirements is, is that, uh, talked about about training. One of the things that you have to do is you have to, uh, after you sit down with them, initially inform them [00:15:30] and tell them the timeline that, uh, that you’ve been hopefully have been provided. Uh, uh, the casualty Ferris officers were required to be with the family to assist with all the paperwork, you know. [00:15:45] Uh, and getting the insurance thing straightened out. Of getting a back pay. Straightened out. Of receiving, uh, receiving the their deceased son’s, uh, stuff. [00:16:00] All right, so that’s part of the part of the requirement.

CROAN: [00:16:10] What’s the, uh, the earliest visit that [00:16:15] you remember? Was it your first one, or was it a little farther in? When when did you first have an experience in that duty that that really stuck with you?

Ron Morgan: [00:16:25] Yeah. Uh, first of all, this one [00:16:30] issue is this is 50, 53 years ago. Yeah. So, um, uh, memories of a lot of memories disappear. Uh, they come back sometimes, [00:16:45] uh, but, uh, they sort of, uh, uh, fade into and they all sort of, uh, merge into merge into memories of trying to, you know, of, of [00:17:00] you lose the individuality, the individual experience. But I remember one family just, you know, a typical, uh, solid family, small town America, uh, [00:17:15] strong grief. But their, uh, uh, their son was a popular kid, you know, in, in the high school and the local area, high school. And but anyway, it ended up where, where the insurance [00:17:30] money, uh, helped helped them purchase a farm, you know, in the honor of the son. Um. Then I think there was one. One that [00:17:45] I remember very well. All right. Is that, uh, myself and the young sergeant that I had with me? Uh, we pulled up into the gravel driveway and, uh, the mother, a very large Hispanic [00:18:00] woman, comes out running towards the car, uh, screaming, hollering. And I got out of the car and shouted at her across the yard. He’s only wounded. He’s only wounded, uh, [00:18:15] which was, I guess, a violation of what? You’re supposed to do it. But, uh, you know, we had to deal with her heavy emotional state right away and let her know that her son was still alive. Uh, [00:18:30] that is something I’ll remember. Sometimes casually the calls turned into three calls. Uh, you made the call at the home, and the [00:18:45] mother might have been there, but the father was at work, and there were several times we had to go to the father’s work and or mother’s work, uh, to find them, to inform both parents, uh, [00:19:00] that, uh, their son was dead.

CROAN: [00:19:08] So if the marine is married, I mean, is there some sort of protocol that tells you who you have to inform first? Like if the marine is [00:19:15] married, does the spouse top the parents?

Ron Morgan: [00:19:19] Uh, if I remember right, we were allowed to tell parents and or wife first. Okay. But based on who was there at the address, you had some information [00:19:30] came in, uh, from, uh, a marine office in Kansas City, Missouri. Uh, it gave you the, you know, the individual’s name, uh, limited [00:19:45] information about the death. Obviously, the date of death. Uh, and then it provided then it, uh, provided you with a next of kin. Um, and, uh, in [00:20:00] an address, uh, and sometimes it included the, uh, the religion of the individual, i.e. Catholic or Protestant. Um, and sometimes you try to when you could, [00:20:15] you tried to identify the priest and or minister, uh, that knew the family. Mhm. Uh, but that only happened a couple of times with me. Uh, I think I had, uh, priest with me twice. [00:20:30] Um, and I can’t remember, uh, other things, but it was a Uh, so when you showed up, you had their family minister with you. I mean, that was the ideal situation. Ideal if [00:20:45] the minister or the priest could handle it. And so I had a couple of at least one situation where the, uh, uh, the priest and our minister was very belligerent, um, [00:21:00] against the Marine Corps. Uh. And we had several times we had several times to where they were, uh, a male cousins, brothers, cousins, whatever that, [00:21:15] uh, were somewhat, uh, belligerent. Uh, but we were usually able to calm that down.

CROAN: [00:21:26] So. Excuse me, how many, how many months did [00:21:30] you say that you performed this duty? And how many? How many calls did you make during that period?

Ron Morgan: [00:21:35] Yeah, 45 calls in the 18 months. Some of those were wounded calls. I don’t remember how many. Yeah, [00:21:45] but there were 45 calls from May 69th to November 1970.

CROAN: [00:21:54] I have heard that there were casualty affairs officers who [00:22:00] may not have been in Vietnam. Uh, but you were you had already you had already done a tour in Vietnam before you had this duty. And so I wonder how how do you think that might have changed [00:22:15] your approach to the job or to the to the families you had to inform?

Ron Morgan: [00:22:24] Well, I’d like to think more care, more concern based on [00:22:30] the losses that I had as a commander in Vietnam. Uh, um, uh, at the time it’s the time went on, I became more and more, uh, [00:22:45] I don’t know how to say opposed to the war and the conduct of the war. Uh, you know, we’d been through, uh, President Johnson and then got into President Nixon and all that. But anyway, the, [00:23:00] uh, I became very disheartened as, uh, these young men were losing their lives for, uh. A very questionable purpose. And, [00:23:15] uh, one of the things he had to do is he had to hide that. Hide those feelings, uh, simply because of the parents that were facing, you know, you couldn’t let them know that you thought that their son’s loss of life was, uh [00:23:30] Uh, useless, you know. You couldn’t do that. You had to, you know, talk, talk. The strong talk about how he gave his life for his country, etcetera, etcetera. Um, and, [00:23:45] uh, uh, so that that became tougher as the time went on. But, uh, uh. We had one. October the 27th, 1967. [00:24:00] My company got into an ambush and we lost, uh, uh, Bravo company. Bravo. Charlie Company lost 15 people. And that that was tough. But, uh, I guess it. Uh, [00:24:15] it made me want to make sure that I. I did my duty as the casualty affairs officer the best that I could. Uh, partially because of those losses that I suffered myself.

CROAN: [00:24:29] Did [00:24:30] you ever feel like those 15 guys were with you on these calls?

Ron Morgan: [00:24:33] Uh, yeah. Some. Yes. Some. Yes. Yeah. The, uh, one of the things we [00:24:45] always had. Not always, but we always had to take two people. And so I went through the inspector-instructor staff trying to identify who the best people or the best Marines [00:25:00] were to take with me. Uh. I mentioned that our first sergeant of our inspector-instructor active duty guy, uh, he had problems controlling his emotions, uh, [00:25:15] on these calls, and he cried all the time. And he said, you know, captain, I guess I was a captain by that time. He says, you know, I just can’t do this anymore. Uh, and then I had, Uh, one black staff [00:25:30] sergeant that went with me usually on all, uh, all calls that were, uh, you know, uh, from the black community in Flint. Uh, but I ended up with, uh, and I guess, [00:25:45] uh, I ended up with a young E-5 sergeant, that, uh, small guy, uh, stocky, but small guy. He was, uh, I remember his name as Woodard now, but anyway, he was [00:26:00] a boy next door. And so I looked very young at that time. And so we we sort of, like, had an easier time blending in with the families because we both looked young ourselves. And so, [00:26:15] uh, as much as we I think we were appreciated more.

CROAN: [00:26:21] Yeah. Like, if you had been more mature, they might have been quicker to blame you. Yeah. Like, they might have seen you as part of the decision making structure. [00:26:30] But if you have a young face, maybe they just you remind them of their of their son. Yeah.

Ron Morgan: [00:26:36] That was the. That was my thought. Yeah.

CROAN: [00:26:43] 45 calls [00:26:45] in 18 months is. That’s a lot of grief to take on. I can’t imagine how you how you processed so much grief in such a short time. Other people’s.

Ron Morgan: [00:26:57] Grief? Yeah. [00:27:00] Um. It was a challenge. The, uh. Whenever we had a funeral, uh, the staff and some [00:27:15] reservists joined us, you know, as the pallbearers and the, uh, the, uh, holding the flag and all that kind of stuff. Uh, when we left to the cemetery and [00:27:30] we found the closest bar and stopped and had had had drinks, uh, just to, uh, get over that, uh, the time at the cemetery. And [00:27:45] so we, uh, we became real lighthearted. We tended to become very light hearted, uh, as, as quickly as possible.

CROAN: [00:27:54] Did that job have a lasting impact on you as a person?

Ron Morgan: [00:27:58] Yes. Uh. [00:28:00] I believe that most of us, my classmates I’m talking about now, uh, we all suffer from some [00:28:15] form of PTSD. Um, and if the flashbacks happen to each of us, the dreams are still there. The nightmares are still there. Uh, but it it [00:28:30] affects each of us in different ways. Uh, I’ve read some books about, uh, uh, post-traumatic stress, but also post-traumatic, uh, growth. And, [00:28:45] uh, uh, one of my results or one of my, uh, what’s the word? Word I want? Is it? I’m, uh, I get very emotional, uh, [00:29:00] uh, very quickly, uh, and usually involves somebody else. I mean, I, I can cry at the drop of a dime. You know, uh, from an emotion of whatever. So hearing some [00:29:15] great music or or somebody accomplishing something very, uh, uh, very good. Uh, I get emotional over that, and I don’t think I ever was that way before. Uh, but it’s post-traumatic [00:29:30] growth just means, uh, uh, emotions are on the tip of your or, uh, experience. The experience is, uh, uh, of combat. [00:29:45] The experiences of being a casualty affairs officer, uh, never leaves.

CROAN: [00:29:53] How did you get out of that job?

Ron Morgan: [00:29:54] Yeah, the, uh. My, uh, expiration [00:30:00] of active service was supposed to be, uh, November the 15th, uh, 1970. I had extended for one year to go on independent duty. Well, uh, uh, I was still [00:30:15] thinking about making the Marine Corps a career. And so, uh, in the fall, late summer fall of of 1970, I applied for augmentation. And when you were a reserve officer, you have to apply [00:30:30] for augmentation to be accepted into the USMC. All right. Uh, well, the problem was, is that the results of the augmentation board were not going to be published until December, December [00:30:45] 70th. So anyway, the the major and some other ones pulled, pulled strings and found out from Headquarters Marine Corps that I had been I was going to be accepted for augmentation. So anyway, we’re into November [00:31:00] and uh, uh, the Sunday before, uh, I was supposed to get out following Wednesday. Uh, I got a call from Kansas City, and they said, Captain Morgan, [00:31:15] we got one for you. And, uh, it was a casualty, And I took down the information, thanked him very much, uh, and said, uh, you made my decision. I’m getting out of the Marine Corps [00:31:30] on, on Wednesday. So that call that I got on Sunday with a casualty, uh, I went out and made the call. And then, uh, you know, three days later, I, uh, I got off active duty. I knew [00:31:45] that I if I didn’t get out of the Marine Corps, if I didn’t get off of active duty, I had at least six more months of duty up in Flint doing casualty affairs work. And, uh.

CROAN: [00:32:00] So [00:32:00] you got that call on a Sunday. You made the visit, and then you left the Marine Corps. You left active duty on the on the Wednesday.

Ron Morgan: [00:32:07] Yeah. I joined I joined the reserves, uh, the following year. Uh, [00:32:15] I started my reserve career. I moved on to move down to Indianapolis, Indiana, and, uh, for a civilian job and then joined the reserves down in Indianapolis [00:32:30] and then stayed in the reserves for the next, uh, 24 years. 26 years.

CROAN: [00:32:38] You retired a colonel?

Ron Morgan: [00:32:40] Yes, sir.

CROAN: [00:32:42] Have you been active at all in the Vietnam veterans community? [00:32:45]

Ron Morgan: [00:32:47] Yes. Uh, well, for years I was, uh, I was a, uh, officer and national officer in the Marine Corps Reserve Officers Association, which was called macro. And [00:33:00] then now I’m still active in the Military Officers Association, uh, here in Charlotte. And we do a lot of veterans support activities with some, some very good veteran [00:33:15] support organizations here in Charlotte. Um.

CROAN: [00:33:22] What is that? Can you talk about what that work means to you?

Ron Morgan: [00:33:28] Well, um. Veteran [00:33:30] support. Um. Had a couple of, uh, uh, grants that our chapter was provided for. Provided, uh, support [00:33:45] for, uh, veterans. And I, my, uh, thought at the very beginning is that we’re going to be supporting young veterans and the families. But a lot of the support. Actually was for older [00:34:00] veterans. Uh, and in Vietnam, Vietnam War veterans that had issues, uh, financial issues mostly.

CROAN: [00:34:13] Ron told me that had he stayed on active [00:34:15] duty and completed another six months of casualty calls, he most likely would have been sent back to Vietnam. That, he says, wouldn’t have been enough to make him leave active duty. But six more months as a casualty affairs officer? That [00:34:30] was a deal breaker. After a short break, we’ll hear from another marine whose story is quite similar to Ron’s. Except this marine performed that duty for two and a half years, during which he made more than 125 casualty calls. [00:34:45] It was enough to eat away at his insides, literally. Stick around. On [00:35:00] Veteran’s Day 1996, Vvmf unveiled an exact replica of the wall that could be packed into an 18 Wheeler and hauled to cities and towns all across America. Since [00:35:15] then, the wall that heals has been displayed in nearly 700 communities throughout the nation, spreading the healing legacy of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial to millions of visitors. If you want to know more about this traveling exhibit and the impact it can have on a community, [00:35:30] check out episode 15 of this podcast. The Wall That Heals and the Mobile Education center that travels with it will be in College Station, Texas, April 27th through 30 and Kyle, Texas, May 4th through seven. To [00:35:45] see the rest of this year’s tour schedule, and to learn how you can bring the wall that heals to your town, visit ivmf.org.

Ann Margaret: [00:35:53] Hi, I’m Ann Margaret. I went to Vietnam to entertain the troops in 1966 [00:36:00] and 1968. My guys, my gentlemen, if you live through the Vietnam War era, you know the impact that the war had. But today we are in danger of history being lost. [00:36:15] Current generations know very little about the war or the people who served. As more of our Vietnam vets pass away each day, their stories are being lost to history. Together we can change that. [00:36:30] The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund is the organization that built the wall. It works to ensure that future generations will understand the war’s impact. Let’s help keep the promise that the wall was built [00:36:45] on. Never forget. Visit vvmf. Org to find out how you can get involved.

CROAN: [00:36:53] The registry is an online community created by Vvmf that connects veterans of the Vietnam War era with each other. [00:37:00] By signing up for the registry, you can upload and share stories and images, connect with others who served during the Vietnam era, and connect your service with people you knew whose names are now on the wall. Join the community and preserve your legacy [00:37:15] or family members by signing up today at vvmf. Org slash registry. Tracy [00:37:30] Altman joined me from his home in green Bay, Wisconsin. I was born in Albany, New York.

Tracy Altman: [00:37:43] Raised a little bit in a place [00:37:45] called Schenectady, and my dad was transferred. He worked for General Electric. He got transferred to Bloomington, Illinois, where I stayed through elementary school and high school. And [00:38:00] then I went to college. I had the good fortune to go to a small liberal arts college in Beloit, Wisconsin called Beloit College. And in the latter part of my schooling [00:38:15] there, that was around 1965. It became more and more aware of what was going on in the world, and specifically how we fit into the world and what our perceived [00:38:30] responsibilities are to our country. My brother had gone into the Marine Corps. He’s three years my senior, so I chose to enter into the Marine Corps Officer Candidate School. [00:38:45] Made that decision in November of 65. And then I started on active duty at Quantico in October of 66. Mhm.

CROAN: [00:38:58] And how long were you in Quantico? [00:39:00]

Tracy Altman: [00:39:02] Uh, at that time, OCS lasted about three months. And then you transfer over to what’s called the Basic School, and I completed that in May [00:39:15] of 67.

CROAN: [00:39:17] Then you received your commission.

Tracy Altman: [00:39:19] I received your commission at the end of Officer Candidate School. So that for me would have been December of 1966. Okay. [00:39:30]

CROAN: [00:39:31] What happened after that?

Tracy Altman: [00:39:32] Well, then you learned how to be a second lieutenant. And that’s called basic school. It’s a condensed, compression, compressed program of learning. And I think it was a wonderful [00:39:45] learning experience. You learn all things about what you need to know to be a marine Corps officer, an infantry Marine Corps officer, all the way from logistics, uh, shooting, uh [00:40:00] 81mm mortars, navigation tactics, history, everything that, uh, the Corps court thinks a person should be knowledgeable of. So when you get done, theoretically [00:40:15] you are academically trained to be an infantry officer. So most of us would go directly to Vietnam.

CROAN: [00:40:27] And did you?

Tracy Altman: [00:40:28] Yes.

CROAN: [00:40:29] And when [00:40:30] did you arrive there?

Tracy Altman: [00:40:31] I got there in July of 67. Very hot. We flew out of Sacramento, California, over to Okinawa. But I can remember getting [00:40:45] into Danang. Uh, flying into Danang and reporting into, uh, first Marine Division headquarters in that month. And I was assigned [00:41:00] to Gulf Company, second Battalion, fifth Marines. Uh, they had a unit that was just overrun, uh, three days before. So there are a couple of officers short. [00:41:15]

CROAN: [00:41:15] You were there for 13 months, I assume.

Tracy Altman: [00:41:18] Uh, good assumption. Most Marines were. I took a brief hiatus for two months. Once, after I was shot, I went down to Camranh Bay [00:41:30] for a month. Um, although that was in Vietnam, that was not in any way being in combat. And then another month, in January of 68, I spent in Okinawa. I was at what’s called embarkation school. [00:41:45] Basically, you’re training to how to load ships. Okay. So for the exception of those two months. Yeah, I was in Vietnam.

CROAN: [00:41:56] You were a platoon leader?

Tracy Altman: [00:41:57] Yes. At that, yes, I [00:42:00] was.

CROAN: [00:42:00] Um, and, uh, how long were you a platoon leader?

Tracy Altman: [00:42:06] I was a platoon leader from let’s see, let’s see from July of 67. [00:42:15] And then, um, after I came back from embarkation school, I was transferred to another unit. That’s when we had the battle of way. 1968 I went over to, uh, [00:42:30] Fox Company, still a platoon leader, and then I was reassigned to be what’s called the S-2 or the intelligence officer for the battalion. And I did that for probably the last 3 or 4 months of my tour in Vietnam. [00:42:45] Mhm.

CROAN: [00:42:47] Can you talk a little bit about, uh, about coming home?

Tracy Altman: [00:42:52] Um, once again, Michael, I consider myself so lucky to be talking to you today and just being [00:43:00] here. I can remember some anecdotes about simply coming home, uh, at the time we were stationed when I was coming home on highway one, and this is about [00:43:15] we were just south of Phu Bai, so we’re making our way down. Both myself and one of the sergeants on my staff in a jeep, and we [00:43:30] passed by a place called Hai Van Pass, and we continued on, got into the airport, and later on that day, after my sergeant returned, got word that there was an ambush that was [00:43:45] conducted on that very road about an hour after we had gone through. So just just to be going home was a sheer lucky opportunity for me. Apparently, they decided not to spring the ambush on just one [00:44:00] jeep, but were waiting for convoys. Typically Frequented both going north and south. Then when I arrived back into Travis Air Force Base, I had [00:44:15] a friend of mine that was in college. Rather, he was going to graduate school, and Tim picked me up and we spent a night in San Francisco. It felt very much out of place, going to a bar that was filled with many folks [00:44:30] that took a different position on the war. So that was like three days before I almost got blown up in that yet to be sprung ambush. And three days after that event, there [00:44:45] I was having a beer with people that were looking at the world in a different way.

Tracy Altman: [00:44:53] I was fortunate though, because from there I went to back home to Illinois, where my parents were, and my [00:45:00] father and mother greeted me at the airport. I had no problems of antagonism being expressed towards me as often as publicised, but I was greeted as a essentially [00:45:15] a returning veteran. I think I took about about a week or two leave, reacquainted myself with some of my high school classmates. Um, but it was a quick [00:45:30] hiatus there between coming back. And then I went down to Lejeune and joined the drive. Okay. I was in Camp Lejeune for about 2 or 3 months, and the unit was getting ready for a med cruise, [00:45:45] but I happened to be living in the bachelor officer quarter, a room away from a recruiter who convinced me, or I allowed him to convince [00:46:00] me of the pluses of extending in the Marine Corps. And there’s we have the reserve unit component of the Marines throughout the United States. [00:46:15] And with each unit there at least was what’s called an inspector-instructor staff, staff of about nine active duty Marines that would be responsible for assisting [00:46:30] the reserve unit to conduct their training on both a monthly basis and the two week active duty during the summer. And that was very appealing to me. I thought in a [00:46:45] loosely developed plan, I could choose a city of my choice and maybe go to law school. So that’s the plan that I envisioned.

CROAN: [00:46:58] Had that been an ambition for you for [00:47:00] a long time.

Tracy Altman: [00:47:02] Uh, no. Probably, uh, as I was aging a little bit more, looking more closely about what do I want to do with my life, that appeared to be a really a viable option. Okay, [00:47:15] so, uh, Milwaukee, Wisconsin was a point in an assignment that one could, uh, avail themselves to. And I remember the recruiter saying there is another [00:47:30] ancillary duty, and that is being a casualty assistance officer. But what you do there is to make maybe a couple of calls a year advising the next of kin of the situation. And I [00:47:45] didn’t give it that much regard at the time. So he said, okay, I think I could do that. So in about September of 1967, I transferred to Milwaukee, He Wisconsin [00:48:00] and became part of the instructor staff there. My title was the Assistant Inspector instructor and my primary job became that of a Casualty Assistance Officer. [00:48:15] In the time that I was there, I made about a minimum of 125 calls over.

CROAN: [00:48:23] What kind of period are we talking about?

Tracy Altman: [00:48:25] Until June of 71. Within that period of about [00:48:30] 30 months, uh, we made over 125 calls. But the scope of duties would be not to underestimate what you you said would be number one to professionally, [00:48:45] yet in a supportive manner. Notify the next of kin of what happened to their marine, whether it be their spouse or son. And [00:49:00] from there on it would be all the things associated with that from the notification. Helping them to the degree that we could build a support base of significant others in their [00:49:15] life to move through this process and to make sure they were connected with the other helping resources that existed, and then to stay available to them if they felt our help would be in any way of meaning [00:49:30] and help to that. Mhm.

CROAN: [00:49:37] So you would be involved for example, in or somebody on your team would be involved in, in making [00:49:45] burial plans, that sort of thing.

Tracy Altman: [00:49:48] Yes. Yes. The way the, the general process would normally work from the time of the event, normally in Vietnam, um, of [00:50:00] course, word would be passed from the veteran’s unit somehow to Headquarters Marine Corps, and there it would go to the reserve unit in which the veteran lived. And in our case, it would be at that time Kansas City, [00:50:15] Missouri, and they’d pass the word and information along to the Inspector-instructor staff. Then the word would come to, in my case, myself. But it was stopping [00:50:30] there. It really was a team effort, not only for the number of people that are involved in the communication process, but, um, those that are going to be supporting that individual, the [00:50:45] survivor. Um, it would be, for example, when I made the call, I’d never do it alone. It would always be done in the company of our corpsman, Doc Smiley. I remember him very well. Wonderful [00:51:00] guy. So both he and I would be making the call. Mhm. Um, and at that point, the funeral director would get involved. Um, of course, the next of kin would be identifying where, [00:51:15] uh, she or he wanted the veteran to be buried. It could be in a, uh, military cemetery or a VA cemetery or their own cemetery, whatever their wishes were. [00:51:30] And then to make sure again, that the individual was connected with the other supporting agencies, like the VA, would be a big one. The Department of Veterans Affairs. So a lot of people [00:51:45] entered into this very difficult time and were very proactive and supportive. Members of of the next of kin.

CROAN: [00:51:58] I assume that you accompanied [00:52:00] an experienced person before they made you do it on your own?

Tracy Altman: [00:52:05] Uh, yes. I shadowed the commanding officer at that time. Wonderful guy by the name of Merle Sorensen. [00:52:15] He was a major, I think, and I watched him do some follow up work with a very special case. It was a situation where a marine got shot down over North Vietnam. [00:52:30] His body had not been recovered. And Major Sorensen was trying to help the mother, who is a very outspoken lady, in trying to gain more insight and understanding and action that would resolve her questions. [00:52:45] So she enlisted the help of congressmen and senators, as well as going through the chain of command that exposed me to the extent and the depth of the loss [00:53:00] I think, that people experienced. And then, yeah, I accompanied Major Sorensen and a couple of visits, and then it became my responsibility.

CROAN: [00:53:14] And do you [00:53:15] remember the first time that you went out without. Without. Without Major Sorensen?

Tracy Altman: [00:53:20] I can remember it as if it happened this morning or yesterday. It’s you. Uh, [00:53:30] we put on our blue uniform, our blues. And it was on a veteran that got killed the day before. So doc and I. And got into the [00:53:45] Marine Corps green station wagon, drove down to South Milwaukee, something like South 17th Street, parked in front of one of these wonderful duplexes [00:54:00] that the south side of Milwaukee is famous for. And walked up and climbed up the stairs, knocked on the door and presented ourselves to the lady. Uh, [00:54:15] I’ll just give her the name of Mrs. Wisniewski. She was an older lady dressed in a printed dress, probably in her late 60s, and she had been acting in loco parentis [00:54:30] for the deceased marine, and she was the person that we had to say. I’m sorry to advise you that your grandson got killed yesterday in Vietnam due to hostile fire. I [00:54:45] can remember that. I can remember the inside of the room where we sat. Uh, many of the details.

CROAN: [00:54:55] I’ve always imagined that by that point in the war, people knew what it meant [00:55:00] when the green station wagon pulled up in front of a house and a couple of guys in dress blues got out of the car. I mean, the whole neighborhood would have known immediately what you were there for. And was that not always the case?

Tracy Altman: [00:55:13] It depends on the composition of the neighborhood. [00:55:15] In this case, it was in the middle of the day and I did not see anybody else around. Sometimes in our desire to make the notification as quickly as possible, it required [00:55:30] visiting the place of employment. And there those observations and reactions of other people were much more apparent and much more available.

CROAN: [00:55:44] What [00:55:45] were some of the different types of reactions that you encountered?

Tracy Altman: [00:55:52] Well, there would be certainly a spectrum of responses. [00:56:00] All of them emotional. On one side of the spectrum it would be, I would say, a more listening response where the party would, on [00:56:15] the one hand, would sense, I would sense that they knew what the message was and they would more or less not passively, but listen to me neutrally as [00:56:30] as the information was presented and then to move along. Um, then it would be total surprise saying, what? What are you here for? [00:56:45] I thought you were a friend of my son. What? And then it would be total shock. Uh, another response would be disbelief. [00:57:00] You’re kidding. No, this this can’t happen. No, it’s not my son. Nuh uh. Another response moving over on that spectrum on the far side would be violent reaction. And [00:57:15] to look at the person that was carrying the message in a as representative of all the things that that individual disliked in the government. Uh. [00:57:30]

CROAN: [00:57:31] So and by that time we’re talking about late 60s, early 70s. I mean, public sentiment about the war had become less positive.

Tracy Altman: [00:57:42] Yes. Right. But [00:57:45] I would say 99% of the time. They did not envision the casualty Assistance officer as as the cause of it.

CROAN: [00:57:57] Did your experience in Vietnam just having [00:58:00] to deal with loss yourself as a leader, did that inform your approach to these families?

Tracy Altman: [00:58:09] I think by having been there and seeing [00:58:15] men die, I would hope it would be a greater sense of caring and respect for the person that [00:58:30] I was talking to, being much more aware of the loss, I think, and what took place.

CROAN: [00:58:41] Do you think they knew that you had been there?

Tracy Altman: [00:58:46] Uh, [00:58:45] probably some did, because we wore with our dress blues, the ribbons, the campaign ribbons, the Purple Heart, the decorations that we received. [00:59:00] Not that probably. I’d say. How many Americans are aware of what those ribbons mean?

CROAN: [00:59:07] Right. Are there other experiences that you remember very distinctly [00:59:15] aside from that first one?

Tracy Altman: [00:59:18] Uh. Let’s see. This is, uh, providing me interesting insight myself, because I can [00:59:30] remember that first casualty assistance call again, like it just happened this morning. But when I look at the others, it’s. I’m sorry to say that, uh, they’re not as distinct. It’s, uh. [00:59:45] I don’t know why not. Because each one was equally important, but I can’t remember, um, each and every one of them. Um, I do remember two others, though, [01:00:00] that were somewhat different because the cause of death was not as a product of hostile action in Vietnam, but one was a car accident. Uh, a marine had parked when he was on leave, [01:00:15] uh, alongside an exit on a freeway. But it was right before the exit started, and he was rear ended, uh, as a part of a car that was just departing the freeway, going up, [01:00:30] up, going up the exit. And our marine was changing the tire. So he was killed by form of a traffic accident. Another one at that time. Again, it wasn’t [01:00:45] a result of hostilities in Vietnam. It was race riots that were going on in Japan within the Marine Corps. And one young man got killed in a riot and by [01:01:00] another.

CROAN: [01:01:00] Marine.

Tracy Altman: [01:01:01] By another marine. So I had advised his dad. Now I do remember that one quite clearly. He worked for one of the telephone companies in Milwaukee. And I notified we [01:01:15] notified him at his place of work. And that was a total shock to him. He possibly thinking that his son was out of harm’s way, being in Japan, not Vietnam.

CROAN: [01:01:31] How [01:01:30] did you come to leave this job.

Tracy Altman: [01:01:35] At that time? Let’s see. This is 1971, and I think the war was starting to wind down because the Marine Corps had [01:01:45] offered early out programs to those Marines that were not intending on making the the Marine Corps their career. Uh, so I took advantage of [01:02:00] one of those early out opportunities, and my three year extension was, uh, reduced to two years. About two and a half years. So, again, I [01:02:15] sought an early out, uh, from the Marine Corps. I recognize and respect greatly the Marine Corps, but I’m still processing our role in Vietnam and [01:02:30] the outcome of that. I think I internalized a lot of the emotion I was living with two other guys who are active duty in the Navy, and we [01:02:45] were sharing a house in the northern part of Milwaukee, and I had a bleeding ulcer. Matter of fact, I had almost passed out because the blood that I lost. And [01:03:00] one of the many lucky things that happened to me just at that time, uh, our landlord, very nice guy that was living next door, knocked on the door and I was able to crawl over to the door, open it, and he looked at [01:03:15] me. I was on my all fours, white as a sheet, and he said, my gosh, what’s wrong with you? And I said, I don’t know. And I more or less passed out. So he called the ambulance and I was went to a [01:03:30] private hospital and transferred to the VA hospital. And I had, uh, diagnosed as a bleeding ulcer. And I was bleeding rather Considerably internally, and I attribute that [01:03:45] bleeding the ulcer to the stress in large part that I was suppressing or not handling well. Drinking only goes so far in handling that thing. Um, so [01:04:00] it resulted.

Tracy Altman: [01:04:02] In, uh what’s called a gastrectomy. Part of my stomach was removed, and then the stitches from that operation, uh, separated, and I was operated again a second time, and [01:04:15] more was taken out. So, uh, I was almost boarded out of the Marine Corps, but considered competent, physically capable of continuing [01:04:30] to do my duties until I got out. So that’s that’s one of the impacts doing that type of duty head on me.

CROAN: [01:04:43] And where did you go and what did you do next? [01:04:45]

Tracy Altman: [01:04:45] I met a friend of mine who said, hey, Tracy, uh, have you heard about this thing called the GI Bill? And I said, what’s that? And he said, the VA will give you money for going to school. I said, you mean a low interest grant or rather a low interest loan? [01:05:00] And he said, no, this is actually money you get for going to school. And I said, dad, you got to be kidding me. What? And he said, why don’t you go down to the VA and talk to them? I had not even heard of the VA nor what this agency was. [01:05:15] So I went down to the regional office in Milwaukee at 342 North Water Street, and talked to the gentleman who was called a veteran’s benefits counselor. And he answered my questions and introduced me to the GI Bill. And then we started just chatting [01:05:30] back and forth and kind of hit it off. And he said, what are you doing after you get out of the Marine Corps? And I said, well, I’m looking for employment now, he said he would consider being a veteran’s benefits counselor. I said no, but that looks [01:05:45] like a good job. You’re helping people. You’re helping veterans.

Tracy Altman: [01:05:49] So one thing led to another, and I started working for the VA. Uh, and I did that, uh, in different roles. But my primary role in the end was working [01:06:00] as a vocational rehabilitation counselor. And we had a wonderful vocational rehab program that would help veterans service connected disabilities, um, get into employment, uh, that [01:06:15] met who they are as a person as well as their limitations by their conditions. So that’s what I did for about 20 years.

CROAN: [01:06:27] Are you still involved today with any veterans groups or causes? [01:06:30]

Tracy Altman: [01:06:31] Believe it or not, yes, I volunteer with the DAV every other Wednesday. We take vets who live in green Bay. Down to Milwaukee, to their specialty clinics if they [01:06:45] have an appointment and need transportation assistance. There are certain stimuli that provoke those memories, like being in a room with flowers, [01:07:00] and just the scent of floral arrangements within a room will immediately take me back to those 30 months, or the smoke of candles in a church. [01:07:15] Oh, that’s a stimulus, for whatever reason, uh, will cause me to think about that again. Let alone to look at the headlines today and to see people talking [01:07:30] not flippantly, but, uh, more openly about possibility of war. A part of me says, well, do you realize what that means? Do you realize what you’re talking about? And [01:07:45] I think back and remember what it looked like in the eyes of Mrs. Wisniewski, who just lost her grandson, and all the many other people that paid the ultimate price.

CROAN: [01:08:23] Our [01:08:15] sincere thanks to Tracy Alton and Ron Morgan for sharing their experiences with us. And to Dan Moore, [01:08:30] one of our Yellow Hat volunteers at the wall for introducing us to them. We’ll be back in two weeks with more stories of service, sacrifice and healing.

CROAN: [01:08:41] We’ll see you then.

Full Interview with Ron Morgan

Full Interview with Tracy Alton

Last Episode Next Episode Back to Episode List