CROAN: [00:00:07] I’m just going to read some titles from among our top ten episodes. I’m on a zoom call with Doug Bradley, author [00:00:15] of the book, We Got to Get Out of This Place, and our guest on episode 18 of the podcast, which we published in November of 2021. I wanted to get Doug’s reaction to the overwhelming popularity of that episode In our top ten list [00:00:30] of episodes, these are the most popular episodes we produced. We have titles like the Tet Offensive, The Battle of the IA Drang Valley, Remembering Khe Sanh, Hamburger Hill, and Number one [00:00:45] over all of those is music of the Vietnam era, and not by a small margin, By a large margin.

Doug Bradley: [00:00:58] Yeah, well, [00:01:00] you know. Amen.

CROAN: [00:01:03] Amen. This is our 50th episode, so we thought we’d reconnect with a few of the people who’ve shared their stories with us over the past two years, starting with The guest from our most popular episode ever. [00:01:15] We’ll also find out what’s been happening with Rocket Man, our favorite Sea Wolf, and our favorite Caisson Marine, along with Lori Reeves, Jerilyn Brusseau, and Rebecca Rush. It’s old home Week here on the podcast, so pull up a chair [00:01:30] and let’s catch up. Stick around. From the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund. Founders of the wall. This is echoes of the Vietnam [00:01:45] War. I’m your host, Michael Croan, bringing you stories of service, sacrifice, and healing from people who still feel the impact of that conflict. More than 50 years later. This [00:02:00] is episode [00:02:15] 50 Familiar Voices, Surprising updates. Let’s get back to my conversation with Doug Bradley. So you’ve seen the numbers, right? You’ve seen what a runaway train that episode [00:02:30] has been and continues to be right. Uh, yeah. Does it surprise you to see this kind of interest in music from that era?

Doug Bradley: [00:02:42] It really doesn’t. I mean, I’m just thrilled [00:02:45] and, uh, you know, it’s I think it’s a testament to the music. I think it’s a testament to what you and your colleagues are doing in bringing these kind of conversations, and this one just replete with the whole sonic element to it. Um, you [00:03:00] know, it was meaningful for all of us, and I think you can’t for me. And of course, again, I mean, I wrote a couple of books about this. You cannot separate the music from the time and from that time. And I got to tell you the fact that I am [00:03:15] still teaching classes, not just to folks of my generation, fellow baby boomers, people in their 60s and 70s, but can still reach audiences in their 20s. Um non-veteran and veteran alike, I think speaks [00:03:30] to that capacity and power and impact of music. So, um, I’m delighted. But I got to say, in a way I’m not surprised because the music is so good.

CROAN: [00:03:40] Uh, there’s something about music from that era, and I think it has to do with what was going on in America at the time. Right? [00:03:45] It was Vietnam, it was civil rights. There was so much happening in the country that would that would turn out to be pivotal. You know, that would turn out to be defining moments, right? For us culturally and politically and otherwise. [00:04:00] And, uh, I think that just that environment bred. Music that was meaningful. Music that had something to say.

Doug Bradley: [00:04:13] I agree, and [00:04:15] I think now, I mean, even though there are, I’m sure artists that still feel this way, it’s a commodity. It’s it’s something you sell. It’s it’s something that you purchase in ways that, you know, you’re a consumer. Then we were [00:04:30] participants in the music. I mean, you know, we were part of what they were saying and singing. Um, I don’t know if we’re ever going to get that again. Frankly, the way the world is and the way the industry’s sort of changed, you know, I’m sure there are folks, you know, Taylor [00:04:45] Swift, little NAS, you know Drake, who knows who might disagree with us. But I think I think the point is there was a communal element to that. And it was it was it was the way we heard it, the way we shared it. Um, now all [00:05:00] music of all time is accessible to you, and you can put that in ways that you said is your concert. You know, that’s that’s the Michael Croan Symphony. Um, and in those days, you know, like we’ve talked about this [00:05:15] before, whether you served or whether you, um, stayed, whether you participated or whether you protested. We all listened to the same music.

CROAN: [00:05:24] Yeah. So, you know, against that backdrop of how different things are [00:05:30] now than they were then, did that era of music in any way define all of the music that followed?

Doug Bradley: [00:05:39] Oh, man, that’s a great question. I’d like to think that it did. And it has, but we made [00:05:45] a lot easier, I think, for a lot of folks to be able to put, you know, a guitar around their necks and think they had something important to say.

CROAN: [00:05:54] Sure, sure. And as you’re teaching these classes to all these young people, right, all these people in their [00:06:00] early 20s, people who were born after nine over 11, um. What are you learning from them?

Doug Bradley: [00:06:10] I try to learn from them. What’s what’s the significance of Lana Del Rey or, [00:06:15] you know, um, Lamar Kendrick, you know, and Frank ocean, you know, they they teach me a little bit of that. So that’s the great thing about, you know, if you’re not, if you don’t think you’re, you know, the sage on the stage, you’re part of [00:06:30] the learning experience. You can learn a lot.

CROAN: [00:06:33] Yeah, absolutely. Do you think, uh, do you think they have different expectations from their music?

Doug Bradley: [00:06:39] Um, I think they have expectations. Might [00:06:45] might be the word I think they have. I almost feel like they’re all programmers. I mean, like, there’s the the sad playlist and there’s the happy playlist and there’s the moody playlist and there’s the Boyfriend and girlfriend playlist, and there’s the [00:07:00] the movie playlist. It’s just, you know, it just seems like I feel like there’s categories and so maybe expectations in that way I’m going to get jacked up for this or I’m going to get down for that.

CROAN: [00:07:11] So music is purely functional. It really is like a soundtrack. [00:07:15] Yeah.

Doug Bradley: [00:07:16] That’s the way a lot of it works. I mean, at least that’s part of what I, I gained from, you know, listening to them and talking to them. But, you know, again, I go back to the thing music is. [00:07:30] I mean, for a lot of folks, it’s still essential. It’s still it’s still this, this adhesive tape, you know, this DNA connection that we have as different as it is from the way we’re explaining the differences, um, and [00:07:45] articulating that. And again, somebody might disagree with us, but it’s still music that’s at the center. And thank goodness, you know, people still get that part. Maybe they don’t get all the rest of the stuff we’re talking about because it’s different, but it’s still music. [00:08:00]

CROAN: [00:08:01] Doug Bradley was our guest on episode 18, music of the Vietnam ERA, which still stands high atop the list of our most popular episodes to date. He’s a Vietnam veteran and the author of three books about the Vietnam War and its aftermath. [00:08:15] You can learn more about Doug and his latest projects at Doug bradley.com. Prior to launching echoes of the Vietnam War for Vvmf, I had never done a podcast, and I have to tell you, this has been one of the most [00:08:30] rewarding experiences of my career. Honoring those who served turns out to be a rare privilege for me personally, and as a lifelong seeker of stories, I’ve learned and grown with every guest we’ve had on the podcast. Among my personal favorites, and there are many, [00:08:45] is the story shared with us by Casey Byington from episodes seven and eight, Rocket Man Part one and Rocket Man Part two. That story moved me so deeply that it elevated my ambitions as a podcast producer. While [00:09:00] staying out of Cassie’s way as much as possible. I poured more energy and creativity into those two episodes than any I had produced up to that point. Cassie and I are still in touch from time to time, and so when we decided to make this episode a kind of update show, she was the first [00:09:15] person I reached out to. So let’s talk a little bit about how having the Purple Heart has changed things for your dad. Um, you know, I think, uh, one of the ways in particular that was very surprising to me was the [00:09:30] impact that had on his access to to health care and the quality, the level of care that he was getting.

Casey Byington: [00:09:38] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, after we got the Purple Heart, it wasn’t long thereafter that he also got his 100% [00:09:45] service connection disability rating. So hand in hand, dad is being very well taken care of now, which we are so grateful for. Right. But yeah, I learned not long thereafter that there is a rating system within the VA and I don’t know if [00:10:00] listeners are aware or not, but it’s like a one through eight rating system and depending upon your service connected disability rating, so 0 to 100, you fall within that ranking. But then also having a Purple Heart, having a medal of honor, having a distinguished [00:10:15] award, um, also can move you in that rating and prioritization. So I think I was telling you that, like, dad’s back is going out and so he has to have, um, you know, cortisone shots and MRIs continuously. What used to take 5 or [00:10:30] 6 months to schedule this last round took us 2 to 3 weeks. So I just remember him, like dropping the phone thinking, that can’t be right. Like you’re already getting me in. Um, because it was just so much faster and more efficient. So [00:10:45] it definitely I don’t know exactly how the rating system works. I was told by somebody at the VA once that with the Purple Heart and the 100%, he’s in the highest priority ranking. Um, I again, I don’t I don’t know exactly how true that is, [00:11:00] but I definitely we feel it in all of the services that he’s, you know, now getting with the VA for healthcare.

CROAN: [00:11:07] Um.

CROAN: [00:11:10] Again, everything that you tell me is, I find just astonishing, right? It’s awesome. [00:11:15] I can’t believe it.

Casey Byington: [00:11:17] Yeah.

CROAN: [00:11:18] So being 100% service connected would have bumped him up somewhere in that one through eight correct set of categories. Uh, but now with the combination of that and the Purple Heart, [00:11:30] he’s at the very top correct of that ladder. And and you can feel the difference in terms of just responsiveness. Uh, what else besides responsiveness? Is there a is there a difference that you can tell in terms of the, um. [00:11:45] You know, the quality of the care or the thoroughness of it? Sure.

Casey Byington: [00:11:51] Responsiveness is definitely number one. Um, also, I feel like the, um, yeah, I [00:12:00] don’t know if the care necessarily, because I’ve shared with you that he lives in a very rural space, so it is nice now that being 100% service connected and with the Purple Heart, he can go to any doctor. It doesn’t have to be like in the VA center, so he doesn’t have to travel to Pocatello or [00:12:15] to Salt Lake City. He can travel just to Idaho Falls. Yeah, which is huge for him, especially as he continues to age. Right? Um, so that’s a big piece. I definitely feel like the, um, appeal process and the claim process, you might think, [00:12:30] okay, he’s at 100%, what more would you be appealing or claiming? However, the new presumptive Agent Orange conditions that were just updated. Dad has some of those. And so our VSO, our the DAV rep that we work with encouraged us to file additional [00:12:45] claims related to those and have those service connected as well. And those again, the process has gone so quick and so smooth. Now, I don’t know if that’s the variable being those A0 presumptive cases. Maybe that’s what’s making it quicker, [00:13:00] but I have to believe that part of it has to do with his 100% and his Purple Heart, because we’re seeing it in other spaces, you know? So it just makes sense.

CROAN: [00:13:08] Yeah, yeah. There’s like a before and after you can. Yes. You feel it.

Casey Byington: [00:13:13] Oh big time. And through my [00:13:15] research, you know, I also learned that once you hit 70%, you can be taken care of fully in a veteran assisted living home when you reach that need. And so oftentimes, veterans, Vietnam veterans would say to me, they’re never going to get you over that [00:13:30] 70 hump, because once they do, then you’re you’re taken care of for life kind of thing, you know? And it was so true. We were stuck at 60% for years. For years. That’s where my dad was stuck. And then it seemed like we got to 80 with one of the claims, [00:13:45] and then suddenly it was like 90, 100. And it was just it just kind of snowballed after that. So I think there was a lot of merit to that too. Again, hearsay, right. It was other veterans training me and telling me, but I think there was a lot of weight to that with that 70% [00:14:00] hump.

CROAN: [00:14:01] Mhm.

CROAN: [00:14:03] Yeah It’s I’m feeling an interesting mix of emotions. Right. I mean on the one hand I’m so happy that your dad is getting the care that he deserves that he earned. Thank you. Um, [00:14:15] on the other hand it took 50 years.

Casey Byington: [00:14:18] I know.

CROAN: [00:14:19] You know, 50 years.

Casey Byington: [00:14:22] Yeah.

Casey Byington: [00:14:24] You know, it’s a mentality I hear over and over, Michael, from that generation of veteran, and it’s the mentality [00:14:30] my dad constantly shared with me is someone deserves it more than I do. And you know, he had his 60% for maybe I think he got that in like 1995 ish. And it was because he went into the VA one time and he happened to stumble upon [00:14:45] a service organizer there who was also a Vietnam veteran. And as they started talking, he said, let me help you file a claim for PTSD. And at that time, dad was approved at 60% and he just stayed there. He never appealed it. He never questioned [00:15:00] it like 60% was enough for him, because there were so many of his brothers that needed it more than he did.

CROAN: [00:15:07] What are some other ways that having the Purple Heart has changed things for your dad?

Casey Byington: [00:15:13] Yeah, I would say back to that [00:15:15] brotherhood like it’s it’s made it even stronger if that was even possible. Um, he came over last fall and, uh, ran the Aaron Butler Memorial Five-k with us, which is a Purple Heart event. And again, he is 73 [00:15:30] this year. He just turned 73. But he runs he runs with us, um, in an event like that. And he walks every day like that’s just part of his processing time, you know, to get out and walk. Um, so, yeah, he came over and did that. And [00:15:45] during that time he got to meet the snake River. Chapter 509, Military Order of the Purple Heart. And they’re everybody who was representing that day were Vietnam veterans. So that was so cool for him to get to sit and talk with them, shake hands with them, talk [00:16:00] about their service time, which is where it always goes right with those conversations. Um, and then, you know, they invited him to their meetings and there’s just that, again, that cohesive collectiveness, um, that he, he avoided for a lot of time. And now this [00:16:15] has just given him one more bridge. Um, you know, to, to help solidify that and to have that in his life.

CROAN: [00:16:22] How do you think that has affected him? Just being part of the part of a community for the first time in 50 years, part of a military community. [00:16:30]

Casey Byington: [00:16:31] And that would hurt. That’s hard to put words around, truly, because it’s affected him in ways I couldn’t possibly describe. You know, like that is a piece that I feel like when when he lost a couple of [00:16:45] his friends who had served with him, um, Tim and Gary died of various reasons. Um, he really felt like there was nobody left in the world that he could talk to at that level. You know, the Vietnam talk, the talk that nobody [00:17:00] else can understand unless you were in country. And so meeting people like, I wish I could show you the picture of him shaking the hand of another Purple Heart recipient, Bill Hamilton, here in Boise. The smile on his face, I could just feel it coming [00:17:15] out of him of like, gosh, there are others still here like me. There are others who understand and have gone through what I’ve gone through, and that I can talk about these stories with. And they they truly get it. You know, it’s not just a oh yeah, I understand. I was a marine [00:17:30] too. It’s, it’s I was there in country the same time you were and I truly understand um, so for his mental health, for his clarity, for his belonging, acceptance, for forgiving himself, for all of the guilt that he deals with with [00:17:45] his PTSD. It helps. I can’t say it fixes all of that, but it helps with all of that, right? Um, for him to feel like he’s part of something.

CROAN: [00:17:55] Do you find that, uh. As he forms [00:18:00] those connections, you know, for the first time in his adult life, uh, or at least since leaving the Marine Corps. Uh, do you find that he’s energized by that?

Casey Byington: [00:18:12] Yeah, I definitely think it it energizes [00:18:15] and it emotionally drains. Right. So I know that they’re like your Agent Orange podcast. That was one where he just he was so upset for so long after he listened to that one, because it breaks his heart to know that so many people [00:18:30] are suffering still from from that horrible, horrible time. Right. And and he knows that part of him feels like it’s just a matter of time before it happens to him because he recalls being showered in it, you know, daily over there. So [00:18:45] there’s there’s some things like that that I don’t want to say. It has a negative effect, but it emotionally drains him. And he does have to, like, step aside and try to turn his mind off from those memories for a little bit. But I definitely think the pursuit of connection, [00:19:00] yes, he craves that. He, you know, continues to go to his local vet center in Idaho Falls to connect with other Vietnam veterans and for his therapy services. And they have like a barbecue on Vietnam Veterans Day that he likes to go and attend and be a part of, which [00:19:15] never in my entire life do I remember ever him doing anything like that until now.

CROAN: [00:19:22] Casey Byington with a very encouraging update from Idaho. I’ll be passing through Boise pretty soon, and I really hope I can [00:19:30] meet up with her and her father, Lance corporal Bill Clovis, in person for the first time. You can check out their incredible story in episodes seven and eight. I’ve made so many meaningful connections doing this podcast, it would [00:19:45] be impossible to highlight all of them in one episode. So let’s switch gears for a minute and talk about some of the unexpected connections that have formed between people who’ve been on the podcast, but in different episodes. Dennis Mannion was one of the subjects [00:20:00] in our episode on the Siege of Kazan, which was episode number 20 and was released in January of 2022, more than a year ago. Our most recent episode on Operation Babylift featured a woman named Leah Heslin, who was one of the orphans [00:20:15] on the last Babylift flight out of Saigon. Well, we never would have found Leah without an unbelievable stroke of luck and some industrial strength persistence, both on the part of Dennis Mannion. You see, Dennis discovered Lee quite [00:20:30] by accident. She was working at Ebbetts Grill in Washington, D.C. when Dennis stopped in for lunch last November. He was wearing something that clearly indicated his veteran status, and Lee struck up a conversation with him that led to her being on our podcast. [00:20:45] Dennis was actually in Ebbetts Grille that day to meet with Lori Reeves, the author of Kiss Lori for me, which was the subject of episode 36. That was one hell of a lunch, right? Dennis and Lori were both in D.C. to participate [00:21:00] in the reading of the names, and they were meeting in person for the first time. And the story of that relationship, the one between Dennis and Lori, was the topic of a recent zoom call I had with both of them. I’m pretty sure it was after Kiss Lori for me, [00:21:15] uh, aired right after we published it. I think, Dennis, you reached out to me and said, I have. I’ve got to get in touch with this woman.

Dennis Mannion: [00:21:23] And you said, if I send the information, I’ll tell her you’re not too creepy. And I thought, well.

Lori Goss-Reeves: [00:21:31] Yeah, [00:21:30] thank you for that.

Dennis Mannion: [00:21:32] Yeah. We talked for over an hour. It might have been an hour and a half that we talked the first time. I’d already purchased the book. I’d already read half of it. Um, but I just felt I needed to talk to Laurie. I had some [00:21:45] thoughts about what she wrote, and I thought, I need, so I need to talk to her. And I listened. When I heard the podcast, I was walking on my morning walk, and I don’t put earbuds in. I just have my phone in my pocket and I listen to it. Then I got home and I as soon as I had to run some errands for Joan, [00:22:00] I put it back in on in my car and I drove until I heard the whole thing again. I listened to it three times in the first day. Um, that’s how taken I was with everything that she had to say and everything she and her mother went through. Um, it [00:22:15] just of all the podcasts that I have heard, it resonated the most with me. Um, maybe because of corpsman and Marines, you know, um, part of it. And, you know, I owe my life to corpsman, and we lost some corpsman on 861, so I [00:22:30] honestly, I understand them and, you know, so that’s and that’s how I knew I had to try to get in touch and then.

CROAN: [00:22:37] So Lori, when you when you first heard from Dennis and you guys had this hour long conversation, the very first one. Um, I [00:22:45] mean, were you prepared for that? I mean, did you I’m assuming you couldn’t have imagined that that conversation would be an outcome of having done the podcast?

Lori Goss-Reeves: [00:22:56] No, I still don’t completely have the ability to wrap my brain around [00:23:00] why this book is impacting 55 to 75 year old men the way that it is. Dennis is one of many veterans that I’ve talked to, [00:23:15] and every time I see that as this sacred space, right where for some reason they trust me. And so Dennis shared a lot about his story. And and I remember him talking about his trip to [00:23:30] Vietnam and the way he memorialized or honored the men that were killed and the palm leaves that he released into the air. And as soon as I got off the phone, I went to my husband and said, Eric, you’ve got to hear this [00:23:45] story here. This total stranger, right, was moved and impacted by my dad’s story in a way that I still don’t. I still don’t understand, and I still don’t know what’s going [00:24:00] to come of this. Clearly a relationship with Dennis, uh, clearly a memorable gift that I know we’ll get to, but. But there’s something bigger. There’s something more. Um, maybe Dennis can [00:24:15] verbalize that better than I can.

Dennis Mannion: [00:24:17] I can just say that in listening to those podcasts, those three times in a row, within the space of four hours.

Dennis Mannion: [00:24:24] Uh.

Dennis Mannion: [00:24:25] I, uh, I just thought you’re telling me I’m. I’m listening to [00:24:30] a story that is a remarkable as any that are on those podcasts since the beginning and so personal, especially with the fact your mother and dad kept journals and they saved letters, and they have these tape recordings. And, you know, I’ve got a [00:24:45] drawer full of 125 letters from my best friend from high school. Um, you know, so I know a little bit about that part of it. And I just was taken with that. But I also because within a day I had the book and you eventually obviously said that the information [00:25:00] your mother had received was inaccurate about where your father was when he was killed. And and I knew right away that that story was bogus about kneeling down or laying down next to the captain and another marine. I mean, there’s no way on earth that [00:25:15] a captain in the Marine Corps who’s in trouble is talking to a corpsman about where we are on the map and what we’re going to do about it. And that just didn’t make any sense, you know, and that’s the story you guys were given. And I thought, well, that’s horseshit. I mean, I knew that was yeah. [00:25:30] And yeah.

Lori Goss-Reeves: [00:25:31] It was nice to have that confirmation from you that, I mean, I had no way of knowing that story wasn’t accurate. I just something in my gut. Right. Something within me knew there was more. I had no evidence of that. I have no military history [00:25:45] with which to base that on, but it just has felt like there’s something driving me and I. I don’t understand how life works, but I know that my dad deserved for us to know the truth, right?

Dennis Mannion: [00:25:57] Absolutely.

Lori Goss-Reeves: [00:25:58] That that what [00:26:00] he did up there. We use the word hero. We throw the word around, uh, his selfless act, um, needed to be shared.

CROAN: [00:26:11] Dennis showed up at Ebbetts Grill with a gift for Laurie. He had been [00:26:15] a forward observer at CSUN, and all these decades had kept one of his maps of the area, complete with the dust from its use. The map also included the sector where Valentine’s Ridge stood. Dennis hadn’t used that part of the map, so it was relatively clean. He asked [00:26:30] his wife, Joan, to cut out from the map he had held onto for more than 50 years. The part that contained Valentine’s Ridge so he could give it to Lori as a gift. Dennis was just going to stick it in a folder or something, but Joan insisted on having it professionally [00:26:45] framed. And that is what Dennis presented to Lori when they met for the first time in Ebbetts Grill.

Lori Goss-Reeves: [00:26:51] And so this now obviously is beautifully framed and sets in our family room and will forever be with me. Um, [00:27:00] a piece of my dad’s history. Not my dad’s map, but the part of the map that shows where his body lay for 21 days and where I am convinced most of his body remained. [00:27:15] You know a part of that ridge forever. This is a Vietnam veteran who has no reason to be connected to the story, except for whatever reason. It moved him in a way that he and I now have this connection [00:27:30] that, that, that there’s almost no words to really describe. Mhm.

Dennis Mannion: [00:27:35] I feel like the map and I are the same. We’re both old. We have lots of wrinkles and folds and soft tissue instead of real healthy skin. And it’s [00:27:45] the map. The map is me and I’m the map. And I knew it would have an impact. I honestly did, but I’m so glad that podcasts allowed us to meet. And that’s pretty remarkable story in its own right, you know. And [00:28:00] it I know it meant a lot to her. I probably can’t even understand how much, but it meant a lot to me. So.

CROAN: [00:28:09] You know, I mean, I think that’s something that often gets overlooked, right? We often talk about what [00:28:15] a gift means to the person receiving the gift, but the giving of the gift is oftentimes really, really profound and meaningful. I mean, this and this is a perfect example of that.

Dennis Mannion: [00:28:25] I yeah. And I, um, I was it was like, I want to [00:28:30] give it to her. And then when I, when she opened it up after Leah left and I was recovering from her, I when, uh, I handed it to her, you know, she opened up the gift. Joan had wrapped it up nicely, and then, uh, she was showing it to Eric, and [00:28:45] then she said something to me about. So is this a photo of your mouth? And I said, no, it’s not. And then I took out the map, and there was a hole in it. I said, we cut it out of the map. So you have the real map. And underneath that glass, [00:29:00] something like that. So yeah, it was pretty magical. And I thought, it is the best gift I can give this woman who wrote this fabulous book about her mother and her father, um, and their time together, and I thought, there’s [00:29:15] nothing else I can give her better than this.

Lori Goss-Reeves: [00:29:18] I think that the gift of. I know this sounds cheesy. The gift of love. Dennis’s gift of his map. Right? What? What an act of [00:29:30] kindness. What an extension of love. Um, it just doesn’t get much better than that.

CROAN: [00:29:37] Lori Reeves and Dennis Manion separated by a generation and by 16 episodes of this podcast [00:29:45] are now wired for life. Man, I really wish I could have been at that lunch. We’ll take a short break and then we’ll be back with more updates from some familiar voices. Stick around. On [00:30:00] Veterans Day 1996, Vvmf unveiled an [00:30:15] exact replica of the wall that could be packed into an 18 Wheeler and hauled to cities and towns all across America. Since then, the Wall that Heals has been displayed in nearly 700 communities throughout the nation, spreading the healing legacy of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial [00:30:30] to millions of visitors. If you want to know more about this traveling exhibit and the impact it can have on a community, check out episode 15 of this podcast. The Wall That Heals and the Mobile Education center that travels with it will be in Edinburg, Texas, [00:30:45] April 20th through 23. To see the rest of this year’s tour schedule, and to learn how you can bring the wall that heals to your town, visit ivmf. Org.

Dennis Mannion: [00:30:56] Hello, I’m Gary Sinise. Nearly 3 million Americans [00:31:00] served.

Gary Sinise: [00:31:00] In Vietnam, and more than 58,000 have their names inscribed on the wall. Those that pay the ultimate price in service to America. Some might ask why the Vietnam War still matters. It matters [00:31:15] because more than 58,000 lives were cut short and their families forever changed. It matters because we should never forget how Vietnam veterans were treated when they came home. A lesson learned so that our current generation of veterans [00:31:30] are treated with respect. The Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, the organization that built the wall, works to ensure that future generations will understand the war’s impact. I’m asking you to help keep the promise [00:31:45] the wall was built on. Never forget. Visit vvmf. Org to find out how you can get involved.

CROAN: [00:31:56] The registry is an online community created by Vvmf that [00:32:00] connects veterans of the Vietnam War with each other. By signing up for the registry, you can upload and share stories and images, connect with others who served during the Vietnam era, and connect your service with people you knew whose names are now on the wall. Join [00:32:15] the community and preserve your legacy or family members by signing up today at ivmf. Org slash registry. Episode [00:32:30] six was another landmark for me. It’s the unbelievable origin story of an organization called Peace Trees Vietnam, as told by its founder, Geralyn [00:32:45] Brousseau. Her brother had been killed in Vietnam, and decades later, she founded the nonprofit that provides for the safe removal of unexploded ordnance and the development of affected communities, first in Quang Tri Province and now in neighboring Quang Binh. [00:33:00] If you haven’t listened to episode six, stop what you’re doing and check it out right now. It’s one of the most inspiring stories I’ve ever heard. I’m serious. We’ll still be here when you get back. So if you need to hit the pause button, I highly recommend [00:33:15] it. Anyway, I recently caught up with Jerilyn in person at the Seattle headquarters of Peachtree’s, Vietnam, and we were joined by the organization’s executive director, Claire Junker. During the last time we talked, um, [00:33:30] I remember one of the things that you, you talked an awful lot about as sort of an organizing principle for Peachtree’s Vietnam was this idea of citizen diplomacy, and we didn’t have a chance to go very deep on that. Can you talk more about just what that means to you, and [00:33:45] how it informs the kind of what happens operationally with Vietnam?

Geralyn Brousseau: [00:33:52] In the formative months of peace treaties, the most important thing was [00:34:00] to come to the point where we could reach out to the Vietnamese people in person, reach out to the Vietnamese people to honor their losses as well as our own, and begin building bridges of trust and [00:34:15] understanding. And that is the theme throughout our whole 28 years, almost 28 years of peace treaties. Vietnam is building bridges of trust [00:34:30] and understanding between former adversaries. We’re clearing landmines and bombs. We’re reaching out in every possible way that we can to build those bridges, [00:34:45] building kindergartens. We’ve now built 22 kindergartens. I mean, that is a huge accomplishment.

Claire Junker: [00:34:53] And now, um, you know, it’s funny, our in-country team and I just talk about this all the time, [00:35:00] and that is the, um, way that the values of friendship and peace and understanding still are the foundation for our success in Quang [00:35:15] Tri and Quang Binh, Quang Tri Province. Um, there was the northernmost province and former South Vietnam the height of heaviest fighting, and it is the place where most of the humanitarian efforts that began during the 90s, um, [00:35:30] started. And as a result, Quang Tri Province has been part of leading US Vietnam collaboration for humanitarian purposes in Vietnam and now in local government organizations [00:35:45] all the way up to the ministry of ministerial level in in Vietnam. Um, the model that began with that first trip and this first C minors that came in 1996. Um, now, [00:36:00] fast forward all these years, there are hundreds of G minors miners working among numerous humanitarian organisations to bring Quang Tri Province to a level of safety in the foreseeable future. [00:36:15] And and for that reason, people will be safe and are increasingly safe from the impact of ordnance. Can you.

CROAN: [00:36:23] Talk a little bit.

CROAN: [00:36:23] About.

CROAN: [00:36:24] You know, what you’ve what you’ve accomplished in Quang Tri Province over the last couple of decades [00:36:30] and how that what you’ve learned there and what you’ve accomplished there allows you to build into Quang Binh and beyond in the future.

Claire Junker: [00:36:39] One of the, um, again, thinking back to our the heritage of the goals of friendship [00:36:45] and peace and understanding, um, not only demining efforts, explosive ordnance risk education, survivor assistance, but also assisting communities impacted by the war and returning land to productive use through [00:37:00] agriculture or through education, has been a companion program to our demining work for all of these years, and as a result, Peace Trees has built 22 kindergartens, 12 libraries, two community centers, [00:37:15] and a host of other development projects like growing Black Pepper on safely cleared land, helping uh women led households, uh, build healthy gardens for their families [00:37:30] that also allows them to sell crops at market to water projects. Um, to now we have a goat breeding project and a banana, um plantation project. And the reason for that breadth is that we don’t come in with a theory of change [00:37:45] and an agenda for what development will look like in Vietnam. We come with an agenda of friendship and partnership and understanding. And so for us, our goal is to help those communities that are impacted by war and who we’re supporting through our mine action work in [00:38:00] reaching their other goals through assisting them with, um, projects based on the availability of safe land. In addition to that, we are also mindful of the next generation. So in addition to those programs that I just rattled off, we also [00:38:15] have a scholarship program that is focused on supporting the family members of accident victims and, uh, ethnic minority children and children who are living in particularly war impacted [00:38:30] places. Um, and those fellowships follow them from the beginning of their education when they’re in kindergarten or first grade, all the way up through university or trade school. And as long as those students, um, you know, keep, you know, [00:38:45] stay in school and keep working at it, we partner with those families to make sure that those children can have a bright, bright adulthood. We’re not in it for the short run. We are going to be partners to Vietnam for a long time.

CROAN: [00:38:58] What does that trajectory.

CROAN: [00:38:59] Look like.

CROAN: [00:38:59] You think. [00:39:00]

Claire Junker: [00:39:00] Peachtree’s, Vietnam and our other other organizations to have, with the support of the US Department of State, with support of veterans and donors, um, built a survey methodology that’s that’s funded and strategic and specific [00:39:15] to address the most dangerous types of ordnance in Vietnam and central Vietnam, which are cluster munitions, and to define the areas that are most impacted by cluster munitions and prioritize them and make them safe in a very linear way. Um, [00:39:30] that strategy has been in development for a long time, and now it’s really clear how we should all be going about it, how much it will cost, and and what kind of effort it will take. And because of that level of clarity about cost and endpoint and, [00:39:45] um, you know, resources, uh, we’re now in a position to bring that to other provinces that, unlike Kuangshi, haven’t seen, um, the level of investment in mine action that they really need. And [00:40:00] that’s for a variety of reasons. One of them is just it’s really expensive to do deep mining work. And as country moves along, it’s easier to look for to to see that there are resources available to begin work elsewhere. Um, as I know you discussed in your last conversation, [00:40:15] Peace trees expanded in 2020 to Quang Binh Province, one province to the north, um, to the other side of the former DMZ, um, where most of the bombing was aerial bombing.

Claire Junker: [00:40:26] And so the problem with cluster munitions there is immense. [00:40:30] During our one of our field teams first week of work, they encountered more than 100 of 100 little bombs cluster munitions near a soccer field, where it was luck and grace that kept those bombs from [00:40:45] from injuring or killing hundreds of people over 50 years. Um, and I feel grateful that beech trees was there that day to find that, um, and [00:41:00] make sure that all those cluster munitions could be removed. Um, and in that work, in those first couple, these first few years of work in Quang Minh, and we see that the problem of cluster munitions is even greater than we thought. Um, and we’re and so we know, [00:41:15] among other things, that we’re working in the right place at the right time and feel very grateful that we have the resources, um, that we have from, again, the US Department of State and also, um, private donors and some corporate corporate support [00:41:30] as well, to bring the resources to Long Bình that are really necessary. If the work of Vietnam speaks to you, let us know. Um, because we rely I say all the time, peach trees relies on true believers. And if you think you’re a true believer, [00:41:45] we hope that you’ll reach out.

CROAN: [00:41:47] Claire Younker and Jerilyn Brusseau. If you want to learn more about Peach Trees Vietnam, maybe even get involved, you’ll find all the information you need at Peace Trees, Vietnam. All one word.org. [00:42:00] While we’re on the subject of de-mining and unexploded ordnance, I thought we’d check in with Rebecca Rush from episode 13 Missing in Action. It’s not easy to do a quick update with Rebecca because she moves so fast and on so many fronts, [00:42:15] but we’ll try to keep up. Rebecca is the endurance athlete who’s won seven world championships and rode her bicycle the entire length of the Ho Chi Minh Trail, stopping at the map coordinates where her father’s plane was shot down in 1972. The [00:42:30] story of that ride is told in the gripping documentary Blood Road, which will be screened in big Sky and Bozeman, Montana, at the end of April, and at the Gold Star Family film screenings at Dar Constitution Hall in Washington, D.C. on May 10th. [00:42:45] The kid sister of Air Force Major General Sharon Banister, who is an active volunteer and board member at VMF. Rebecca also founded the nonprofit Be Good Foundation, which has three areas of focus, one of which is the removal of unexploded ordnance [00:43:00] in Southeast Asia. I reached her via zoom at her home in Ketchum, Idaho. I’m always talking about that, about that film, and I think it’s just a remarkable piece of work. Forget about, you know, writing 1200 miles on your bicycle. Just the film [00:43:15] is great.

Rebecca Rush: [00:43:16] Thank you. It’s really well put together.

Rebecca Rush: [00:43:19] Yeah, and.

Rebecca Rush: [00:43:20] I mean that ride on the Ho Chi Minh trail in 2015, eight years ago now, um, really did, uh, kind [00:43:30] of set me on a on a journey. Yes. I went to the place where my dad’s plane was shot down. Yes. We made an amazing film about the story, but everyone always says, oh, that must have been closure to get to go and stand on those map coordinates, coordinates [00:43:45] and be in that place. And it’s so far from closure. It was an opening. Getting to know myself, my dad, the military family, the Gold Star family, people even who aren’t touched by loss of the Vietnam [00:44:00] War, but who have other service members or or who lost a parent to some other, you know, some other situation. And so I’ve really felt like that journey really set me on a trajectory to find [00:44:15] true connection and, and a true purpose. And I know that, you know, I launched the Be Good foundation in his name. Um, after that ride on the Ho Chi Minh Trail and that work continues and been doing more bike adventures, but really honing [00:44:30] in on the connectivity that I’ll share. And a lot of my focus, yes, is around around the film, around, um, that healing journey. But it’s bigger than that for me as a professional [00:44:45] athlete. It’s really helping people find healing by moving in the outdoors. And I truly believe those two things, nature and and movement are healing for a lot of people. And you see that in the rides I host. You see that [00:45:00] in military groups that, you know, maybe are suffering and and getting in bike rides together. So it’s it’s pretty exciting to be able to see that shift in my work. So that’s a big not a big shift. It seems so obvious, [00:45:15] but I kind of needed my there.

CROAN: [00:45:17] It was there all the time.

Rebecca Rush: [00:45:18] It was there, and my dad was kind of showing me and and my career has been going that way, but I haven’t been able to articulate that and until recently. And I have to think that journey on blood road for, [00:45:30] for that discovery.

Rebecca Rush: [00:45:32] Mhm. So you.

CROAN: [00:45:33] You mentioned that you feel like you’re at a the.

Rebecca Rush: [00:45:36] Beginning of a.

CROAN: [00:45:37] New.

Rebecca Rush: [00:45:37] Phase.

CROAN: [00:45:37] With the film.

Rebecca Rush: [00:45:40] Yeah. And really, you know, obviously we’ve gone through a pandemic. We [00:45:45] had the original film festival launch year, you know, in 2017. But what I’m seeing is this evergreen piece that I can take on the road, um, is a wonderful tool to just connect [00:46:00] people. Everyone resonates with the story of a father and a daughter or a parent and a child. Everyone resonates with going to a place that you’ve never seen and meeting people from another culture. And so I’m realizing the film, you know, a typical film might have its, you know, splash, [00:46:15] and then it’s done. This is an evergreen project, and it’s the story of my life. A really exciting evolution that’s happening is my sister, um, is retiring next week from 31 years as [00:46:30] a two star general in the Air Force. Um, General Bannister, she’s retiring after a long and really decorated career. And she’s. She and I plan to collaborate on speaking together, sharing our joint [00:46:45] stories of healing and recovery. We came to recovery and healing in very different avenues. Her through 31 years in the military, me through expeditions and bike riding. But we really, as sisters have [00:47:00] a very similar story. And so I’m excited for her retirement because we plan to work together and to, as Gold Star family members and sisters, do more work together to share, to share our stories and to empower more people. [00:47:15]

Rebecca Rush: [00:47:15] The first place that we’ll be doing that is actually coming up really soon. Um, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the end of the Vietnam War at the Welcome Home event in DC, will be part of a film [00:47:30] festival, Gold Star Family film screening with six different films. And we’ll be showing Blood Road there on May 10th in DC. Um, and it’s free for anyone. And all the films are produced made by Gold Star Daughters. So it’s a pretty special [00:47:45] opportunity to, um, share Blood Road there. And my sister and I will be announcing the film and having a reception. And so that is going to kick off the events for the entire weekend for the 50th Welcome [00:48:00] Home event in DC. And so I’m really proud to be part of that and excited. And I think it is kind of a springboard to maybe the next phase of how my sister and I share our stories to help other people. And, [00:48:15] um, this is how we move forward and heal. And I think Hughan really said it best. Hughan was my writing partner in On the Blood Road Trail. She’s a Vietnamese cyclist. We didn’t know each other beforehand. We barely spoke the same language. And I learned [00:48:30] so much from her.

Rebecca Rush: [00:48:31] And she said in the film, and I didn’t know these words until I read the subtitles and saw the completed film. You know, she said that that this is where Where Healing Begins is just two people, two [00:48:45] sisters riding bikes together in, in a place and experiencing something together. That is how healing begins. Is one person, one podcast, one bike ride at a time. And she also has said to me recently, we’ve kept in touch, and she said to me recently [00:49:00] that she believes the work I’m doing now is is the most important work of my life, and our primary project that we work on is clearing clearing bombs along the Ho Chi Minh Trail where I rode in Laos, [00:49:15] collaborating with Mines Advisory Group, and that is our sort of seed project that we worked on and why the foundation was was launched. And since since 2019, we have been able to clear [00:49:30] 30,000m² of land in Laos from unexploded ordnance. And what is that number? It’s not a huge number. You know, there’s a lot of work yet to be done, but it it’s equivalent to about six football fields of land that [00:49:45] the Be Good foundation has personally cleared um of unexploded of unexploded ordnance in Laos along the places where I rode. And I’m pretty proud of that.

CROAN: [00:49:55] Yeah, and don’t sell yourself short on that. Six football fields. I mean, our listeners, right. They [00:50:00] know because of because of episode six, our listeners are very aware that just the amount of equipment and training and expertise and government oversight and dealing with, you know, um, uh, you know, various government [00:50:15] ministries, I mean, this is not. And then add to that that the, the, the UXO that you’re clearing is in really dense, really dense jungle. I mean, it’s it’s a remarkable thing.

Rebecca Rush: [00:50:27] Under that much.

CROAN: [00:50:29] That much land. [00:50:30]

Rebecca Rush: [00:50:30] I every inch has to be every square meter is hand cleared by multiple people with process and the safety aspect and teams. And I’ve actually been able to go back [00:50:45] and be part of that process and, you know, gone back to to Laos quite a few times to to experience that work and to take other mountain bikers along the Ho Chi Minh Trail to really show them. Because once you see how [00:51:00] difficult it is to clear that land, you understand that. Yeah, six football fields. That’s pretty good. I’m pretty proud of that. And we can we plan to keep going. And that’s many, many villagers. You know, farms and land is enclosed [00:51:15] in six football fields. So that’s a lot of people to impact. And and when we ride through, when we come back and and sit and, you know, hang out in their huts and meet the people, the Lao villagers and the workers who are doing this clearing, [00:51:30] it’s so magical to sit and know that they’re proudly clearing their own land and that you’re part of the solution. And, you know, my my dad was the one dropping bombs there. And I feel very passionate [00:51:45] that his instructions for me and his remorse and this is the work I should be doing, this is the work he wanted me to do and where my career has been leading me for decades.

Rebecca Rush: [00:51:56] Yeah he did.

Rebecca Rush: [00:51:57] It’s a good feeling to know.

CROAN: [00:51:59] He did. [00:52:00]

CROAN: [00:52:00] The work he had.

CROAN: [00:52:00] To do.

Rebecca Rush: [00:52:01] Exactly right he would be. I know he’s right alongside me, um, doing, doing this kind of work of of clearing UXO in Laos, but also getting more people out into the wilderness. And what I know about him is he [00:52:15] was a he was a wanderer. He, you know, loved to be outside, you know, I’ve inherited that from him. And so I’m spreading that sort of good word of, of getting people moving in the outdoors as well. I think we should go on a bike ride sometime [00:52:30] soon, huh?

CROAN: [00:52:32] And that is how this podcast meets its ultimate demise. With the death of its host from trying to go for a bike ride with Rebecca Rusch. If you’re interested in learning more about Rebecca or the Be Good Foundation, [00:52:45] or if you’re looking for information about the Blood Road screening in D.C., hop on over to the Be Good foundation.org. If there’s a theme emerging [00:53:00] from this episode, it’s connection. Everyone we’ve talked to has mentioned it in one way or another, whether it’s connecting with their own family members, other Vietnam veterans and members of that generation or with each other. All of these people are driven to make meaningful [00:53:15] connections, forming communities that make a lasting, positive impact. More than 50 years after the Vietnam War impacted them in various ways. Our final check in for this episode is with Tex Morgan. He’s [00:53:30] one of the sea wolves I traveled with on a trip to DC organized by Honor Flight San Diego. That trip is the subject of episodes 40 and 41, and was another watershed moment for me as a podcaster and as just a lover of stories. [00:53:45] I reached Tex at his home in Missouri to find out how that journey changed the Seawolves who shared it. Whereas most of the Seawolves that I talk to on the Honor Flight have been disconnected [00:54:00] from the rest of that brotherhood for 50 years, you’ve been involved in that community for a couple of decades at least. So you have you have the ability to see what that community looked like before [00:54:15] the honor flight and what it looks like now. I wonder if you can share your your observations, what you’ve seen, uh, change in that community as a result of that honor flight.

Tex Morgan: [00:54:26] Being connected with a lot of my brothers [00:54:30] on on social media, on Facebook, mainly a group of us have stayed in contact. Uh, I know that there’s a lot of the Seawolf brothers that that, uh, participated in the social media [00:54:45] scene, but they don’t they’re they’re not much for making comments and stuff or posting pictures or memories. And, uh, since the honor flight, it [00:55:00] is really seemed like the our Facebook page has blossomed. Um, there’s more pictures posted. Uh, more memories, uh, videos. Sad [00:55:15] and and at the same time, some very hilarious stories have come out from from, uh, our cross between the Black Sheep Squadron and McHale’s Navy. Um, um, [00:55:30] I feel that the honor flight has tightened us up a little bit.

CROAN: [00:55:37] I mean, what is that tightening up look like? You just. You talk more frequently. You talk more openly. What is it?

Tex Morgan: [00:55:44] More openly and [00:55:45] more frequently. Uh, there’s there’s, uh, instead of for years and years, never saying anything about what we did. Uh, we lost contact with a lot of each other. [00:56:00] And the honor flight has just has opened it up. There’s there’s more people, more more squadron members and and the the Sea Wolf families have opened up [00:56:15] much more. And being being one of the the units that was established and disestablished in the combat zone, uh especially Navy [00:56:30] is, uh, an extremely rare thing. And the fact that that the honor flight and the way, uh, San Diego and Baltimore, Maryland and Washington, DC accepted us and [00:56:45] praised and and. The acceptance and recognition that we existed has, has become more up into [00:57:00] the forefront of all of our conversations and bless them, people of the honor flight, because they did help bring a lot more closeness to [00:57:15] all of the Seawolves. Mhm. It’s uh. It filled an empty spot that I had inside my heart that [00:57:30] uh, I didn’t know was ever going to be filled up.

CROAN: [00:57:36] You’ve taken a larger role or a more formal role in the association since that. Since that.

Tex Morgan: [00:57:43] Yes, I have. Um, Pat [00:57:45] Semel, our, uh, president, approached me and wanted to know if I would consider, uh, taking over as the membership coordinator for the, uh, for [00:58:00] the association. And, uh, uh, I was honored to even be, uh, requested.

CROAN: [00:58:11] How has that affected you?

Tex Morgan: [00:58:14] Well, it’s it’s [00:58:15] put me more in contact with the the members of my squadron. I have I have access to, uh, to the, uh, master, uh, squadron personnel [00:58:30] list and uh, the association uh, uh, membership list. So that puts me much deeper in contact with with everybody that was in my squadrons throughout [00:58:45] the whole six years.

CROAN: [00:58:47] Have there been any, uh, surprises as a result of that access?

Tex Morgan: [00:58:52] Yeah. Uh. The. I guess the surprises would be the personal contact [00:59:00] with the the families and and and the extended families of some of the, uh, 44 that we lost. And it it gives me. Uh, [00:59:15] it just gives it gives me a greater insight into, uh, the inner workings of my fellow Seawolves. I’m much more personally involved [00:59:30] than I ever was before. And, uh, it’s, uh. Like I said, it’s it’s a hell of an honor.

CROAN: [00:59:41] The city of San Diego just. And you know, and the and [00:59:45] the organizers honor flight San Diego. They put on a welcome home like like I’ve never seen. I mean, there must have been 1500 people there. And I know for a lot of the guys on that flight, that was really the [01:00:00] first welcome home that they had received. And you could see it. You could see it on their faces. How do you think that moment changed the members of that Sea Wolf brotherhood? I mean, what have you seen? What have you witnessed? [01:00:15]

Tex Morgan: [01:00:16] I firmly believe that the welcome home has broken down walls. It has freed us from bonds that we had imposed upon ourselves [01:00:30] due to the, uh, situation in the United States when we came home.

CROAN: [01:00:35] Um.

Tex Morgan: [01:00:37] We don’t necessarily feel vindicated, but we feel that we have now [01:00:45] been accepted. And when we do see each other, we’re much more relaxed about feeling free of saying and exactly how we feel. And [01:01:00] uh, yeah, it’s just a game changer.

CROAN: [01:01:06] Tex Morgan of the US Navy, Hal three Sea wolves. Those guys know a little something about changing the game. If you haven’t had a chance to watch the [01:01:15] documentary Scramble the Sea Wolves. My advice is get on it. That’s [01:01:30] a wrap, folks. Episode 50 is in the books and we look forward to many, many more. Thank you for listening and for spreading the word about our little podcast, which has now been listened to nearly 180,000 times. We’ll [01:01:45] be back in two weeks with more stories of service, sacrifice, and healing. We’ll see you then.

Full Interview with Dennis & Lori

Full Interview with Doug Bradley

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