[00:00:04] (Peggy Green Bryant) When I was in high school, I asked my mom, who did my dad die with? You know, it’s something that I was always curious about. My name is Peggy Green Bryant, and I am the second of five children. I have an older sister and three younger brothers. And so I just I was curious about him. And mom got really a little angry, and she said, I don’t know why you’d want to. I don’t know why you’d want to know that, he killed your dad you know. And it kind of shocked me because I never thought about it that way.

[00:00:47] (Host) Peggy’s father, Ivan Green, had been a passenger on a helicopter that disappeared in Binh Dinh Province in April of 1969. The circumstances of that disappearance remained murky for a long time, but eventually the aircraft was found crashed and two bodies were recovered. Ivin’s and that of the pilot, Francis Frank Alivento. Theirs were the only two souls aboard.

[00:01:19] (Maryann Mazza) I’m Maryann Mazza. I live in Staten Island, New York. I was raised in Brooklyn, New York. My brother was Francis Alivento. He was a warrant officer. He was drafted and was in the Army a very short time before he was killed.

[00:01:37] (Host) Like Peggy, Maryann always wondered who else besides her brother. The pilot had died in that helicopter.

[00:01:49] (Maryann) Peggy came and said, it’s my dad. And I said, well, if it’s your dad, how could you be my friend? My brother killed him, a father of five children.

[00:02:06] (Host) When the details of a tragedy are shrouded in the fog of war and the mists of time, people often cling to whatever story brings them clarity. Peggy and Maryann were just little girls when that chopper went down. And the stories they heard from the adults around them were less than clear and a long way from comforting. But kids grow up, don’t they? And then they write their own stories. And like all of the best stories, this one ends with love. Stick around. From the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund, founders of The Wall. This is echoes of the Vietnam War. I’m your host, Michael Croan bringing you stories of service, sacrifice, and healing from people who still feel the impact of that conflict more than 50 years later. This is episode 60, An Unbreakable Bond.

[00:03:31] (Peggy) My dad and mom both grew up in Coulterville, Illinois. He enlisted right after high school, and he’s a year older than my mom. So they got married after she graduated from high school, and so they went to California. My sister was born, and then he got out. He enlisted, but he got out for a year, and then he re-enlisted.

[00:03:56] (Maryann) My brother was drafted straight to helicopter school. He drove a helicopter before he drove a car, and he was only one year in the service.

[00:04:09] (Host) Mary Ann, you said you were 11, right? When your brother was killed?

[00:04:14] (Maryann) Yes.

[00:04:15] (Host) What do you remember about him before he left?

[00:04:19] (Maryann) My brother was the best big brother ever. He was the only person that was able to comb my hair. He took me to the movies. He bought me pizza. He was just great. Even when he had his girlfriend, which was Rosalie, they took me all over. He was. He brought me home presents every time he went to basic training, wherever he was. He wrote me letters every day from Vietnam. It was great.

[00:04:59] (Host) It’s a big age difference. He was 11 years older than you.

[00:05:01] (Maryann) I was a mistake. I wasn’t supposed to be. So I have a brother. My brother Frank was 11 years older than me. My sister is nine and my other brother is five. So, yeah, I’m the baby. Much younger.

[00:05:20] (Host) Well, don’t think of it as a mistake. Think of it as you were planned, but not scheduled.

[00:05:25] (Maryann) Oh, no. They told me many, many times. They were done. They were in their 40s. They were done having children. And my sister, my brother, they had a lot to do with raising me because my parents were in their 40s.

[00:05:38] (Host) Do you have military people in your family?

[00:05:40] (Maryann) My father was in the in the Seabees. My uncle was in the Army. My other uncle was in the Army. My uncle was a medic in the Army in Korea. The other guys were in World War Two we’re a big, big patriotic family. We always were.

[00:05:57] (Host) So when he got his draft notice, there was no question.

[00:06:00] (Maryann) No. Not really. No. He was studying. He was in second year of engineering school, college.

[00:06:06] (Host) So he could have gotten a deferment, I would think.

[00:06:09] (Maryann) No, there was no they were taking everyone. They took every boy that age on my block, and they all came home. My mother watched every boy come home except hers. Six months he was there.

[00:06:27] (Host) What do you remember about the letters he wrote to you specifically?

[00:06:31] (Maryann) Everything was to do well in school, do well in school, do your studying. He knew what grade I was in, what I was studying. Do your work, study hard and get a good job. Do well in school.

[00:06:44] (Host) Did you?

[00:06:46] (Maryann) Absolutely. Two degrees. Yeah. I did the same thing for my boys. My youngest son looks exactly like my brother.

[00:06:57] (Host) Mm.

[00:06:59] I see my brother every day.

[00:07:02] (Host) In his nephew, well, Peggy, let’s talk a little bit about your father. You said he was career army. What memories do you have about your dad that that are still really vivid in your mind?

[00:07:17] (Peggy) Not many. You know, he had spent a lot of time, like a year in Greece. He had spent a year in Germany. You know, he was getting, according to mom, he was getting all of his tours out of the way so that he could be around when we were older. And so, I remember he would come home and Dennis, my, the brother younger than I, he, we would run and we’d have a race to see who could take off those military boots, you know, the fastest, you know. But we don’t have a lot of memories, I don’t think, because we didn’t talk about him, you know? Um, we just, we didn’t. And of course, your memories fade. So there just aren’t a lot of memories there. You know, I remember when, he went missing. You know, we are a very Christian family, Methodist, and so we said our prayers every night. And so I remember stepping up the prayers, but there was something in my gut saying he wasn’t coming home. You know, there was something saying, you’re wasting your wishes, sister. It’s not going to happen. My dad was a career Army and I think it was his 15th year. He had started an initiative in Vietnam where they made sure that the men under his control had a hot meal every day, and they were not eating the canned rations. And so that was what he set up his first tour of Vietnam and then went back to finish that work or to continue that work and, you think, oh, a Mess Sergeant, you know, what could possibly I mean, they’re not in the middle of the combat, even though they were in combat zones. He was out inspecting mess halls and they were taking the Jeep. But apparently that pass became so dangerous they had to start flying. And that’s why, you know, they were in a helicopter. You know, that was his job, I guess, to take the priest and the food service technician you know, around, because it was safer to fly is what my cousin told me. It was safer to fly than it was to drive.

[00:10:01] (Host) Frank and Ivan were reported missing in April. Both families spent the summer waiting for news, and when it finally came, it was the worst kind. The helicopter had crashed, killing both men. I couldn’t understand how those facts, all by themselves, had led to both girls growing up with the notion that it must have been something that Frank did wrong.

[00:10:27] (Host) Why would anybody assume that it was the pilot’s fault?

[00:10:29] (Peggy) Because it was an accident.

[00:10:31] (Maryann) First we were told he was shot down, and that’s why we didn’t have original dog tags.

[00:10:37] (Peggy) You know, they did say it was later. We learned because we were told to they were shot down. Um, and then because I’ve got relatives who say no, it was shot down. No, they crashed into a mountain. And then anything you find on the internet says that it was bad weather and that they crashed.

[00:10:59] (Host) The accident occurred in April.

[00:11:02] (Peggy) April 8th, 1969.

[00:11:05] (Host) By then, the war was highly controversial in the States.

[00:11:10] (Maryann) It was terrible. It was a terrible time.

[00:11:13] (Host) One thing that I’m having a hard time understanding is why Peggy, your mother and you, Maryann, and perhaps other people were under the impression that this was somehow Frank’s fault. And how long did you have to live with that notion before you finally were able to let that go?

[00:11:40] (Maryann) I was a little girl, you know, back then. It was. My parents were grieving so terribly I had no one to speak with. I had nobody. My brother and sister moved away.

[00:11:56] (Peggy) I think my mom was just wanting to blame somebody. You know, she just. She needed answers. I don’t think the military gave answers readily. That was his second tour of Vietnam, and he, um. I was told that he had taken somebody else’s place. So mom also blamed the guy who stayed back. And you know who? Who? Dad took his place. Mom blamed him, too.

[00:12:26] (Host) So you were an MIA family for a few months?

[00:12:31] (Peggy) Yeah.

[00:12:33] (Host) And I’m assuming, Maryann, the same was true for your family.

[00:12:36] (Maryann) Yeah. We were sitting down watching the moon landing, and my father said they can land a man on the moon, but they can’t find my son in a jungle.

[00:12:47] (Host) Maryann, do you remember anything about the day that your family got the news?

[00:12:52] (Maryann) I was at the beach that day the first time that they came and I had just come in the house and I was taking off my clothes. My grandmother always sat at the window watching the children play outside, and she let out a scream because obviously she knew what it was. And my mother and father went down to the door and my mother just collapsed. My father, you know, took the news. My grandmother was screaming and we all knew exactly what it was. So, you know, aunts and uncles, you know, we’re a big Italian family. And within ten minutes, we had a dining room full of aunts and uncles there to comfort us. But there was, you know, there was no comforting at that point. It’s a big Italian family, and they’re all there to be with you. And everybody’s trying to find out news. And those two soldiers did stay a while. They didn’t leave right away. They came upstairs and into our home. So I do remember that. Actually, my sister has a different recollection, so I don’t know. It’s just it’s a long ago memory.

[00:14:24] (Peggy) I was sitting on the front porch by myself, and I saw the car coming down the road. And like I said, there were only five houses on our street, and they stopped in front of our house. So I remember sneaking around or not sneaking, walking around to the back door and going in. And I was really good at eavesdropping. And I remember listening because my mom was packed. She was meeting my dad in Hawaii when he, was he was going to have TDY. Um, when we were helping her clean out her house, we found a letter that he had written to her, giving her all these instructions on where she’s to go in the airport. And so she was packed and ready to go to Hawaii to meet him. And then they gave her the news. And I don’t remember her telling us five about what happened. You know, about that he was missing. I don’t remember that. Coulterville is a is a very small town. You know, about 1200 people at the time, I think. And so everybody knew everybody, and everybody was related to everybody. And so it was, you know, everybody knew. Everybody knew. When that car drove down our little street that had only five houses on it, you know, it didn’t take long for word to get out that he was missing.

[00:15:58] (Maryann) So I was famous in a neighborhood. I was famous at school. I was famous at reunions. I was famous at, you know, parties. When we did start going back to family gatherings for a reason, I didn’t understand what was going on. I was only 11 or 12. I didn’t really understand it.

[00:16:17] (Peggy) I was embarrassed, I, you know, you go back to school and I just had the feeling everybody knew and they were all looking at me and I just didn’t want that attention, didn’t like that attention. So, you know, sitting in a classroom, April, May it was it was tough. You know, I always considered the summer of 69 the year of waiting, you know, where we just sat around and waited, you know, and, that was the year I turned, you know, that summer I turned 11 and, my mom with five kids tried to make things normal for us. Like, people will always talk about the landing on the moon. You know how monumental that you know how historic that was. We weren’t watching that, mom. You know, either had us out playing or going and doing something or visiting a relative. You know, we were not in front of the TV. And then when we got the notice that the bodies were recovered, we were out of school. It was August at that point.

[00:17:22] (Host) Yeah. Do you remember anything about the day that, uh, your parents got the second visit?

[00:17:28] (Maryann) I remember Rosalie, I remember Rosalie sitting in a chair, and she didn’t move. She didn’t move. She knew what she was. Rosalie was with us from those three months. Rosalie only lived up the block from us. They were childhood sweethearts. She didn’t move. She didn’t eat. The priest came to sit with her and she just stood there and didn’t move for three months. It was waiting. That’s what I remember.

[00:18:00] (Host) How long had they been married?

[00:18:02] (Maryann) They were married nine months.

[00:18:06] (Host) How old was she when he passed away?

[00:18:08] (Maryann) She was two years older than him. So if he was 22, she was 24.

[00:18:13] (Peggy) In August, when the car comes back. I remember that. We were sitting there watching TV in a little TV room between the kitchen and the living room. And so mom was in the living room by herself. And I remember when she came in and she said, your dad’s not coming home. My sister and I were old enough to have an idea of what’s going on. Chris and Scott were younger. My brother Dennis remembers being at my aunt’s house, when he got the news.

[00:18:47] (Host) You said we never talked about it. You said that several times. And I can understand why it would be difficult for your mother to talk about it, but I have three kids, and they talk to each other. You know what I mean? They talk to each other. Did you and your siblings talk about it when mom wasn’t around?

[00:19:07] (Peggy) No, we did not. We did not. Um, on his birthday. His birthday was, April 26th. And she was really upset one day and said, you guys don’t even know that today is your dad’s birthday. And, you know, and I didn’t say anything, but my brain was thinking, how would we even know that if we never celebrated it. We never even talked about it. I don’t remember talking about it at all. It’s not until, probably in the last ten years, I would say, you know, that we have talked about dad.

[00:19:47] (Host) So which, incidentally, is the same amount of time that you’ve known Mary Ann.

[00:19:51] (Peggy) That’s exactly right.

[00:20:01] (Host) Cosmically connected by tragedy, Peggy and Mary Ann connect physically and emotionally after a short break. Stick around.

[00:22:58] (Peggy) So flash forward to the 1980s. My next door neighbor was an Air Force pilot, and so while I was talking to Dave and I told him what my mom said and he said, I can guarantee you there is no way that pilot wanted to die any more than your dad did. And I was like, okay, that made me feel better. So then flash forward to the World Wide Web, which was what, the 90s. And I found a website called The Wall USA dot com. And so I plugged in my dad’s information and, you know, people commented and it was a really nice thing, you know, a connecting thing. And I was sitting there and I’m like, I bet I can find out who he died with. So I plugged in all the information except the name. And sure enough, only one soldier died in Binh Dinh Vietnam in 1969, on April 8th, and it was Francis Alivento. I then, just put that in the back of my brain. And about a year later, probably, I was looking on the page again and Mary Ann had commented and I noticed she had said she was 11, and I’m like, I was 10 and 11, you know, I was ten when he, um, when we got the notice that they were missing and the funerals were in August and I turned 11 in June. And so I was like, oh, so I saw a connection there. And then I guess that was in January, I read that. And then in, um, Memorial Day, I was I was just sitting at my desk and I’m like, I’m going to write her. And so I put in the regarding line, your brother, and I wrote her a letter and said, I think my father was the passenger of your brother’s helicopter.

[00:25:03] (Maryann) I was so happy because we had no idea. And we put together that we were exactly the same age. Because my birthday is July and her birthday is June. So now she’s writing these beautiful, eloquent notes to me, and she said, keep writing to me. I want to know more about your life. And I was so happy to have a friend that I could talk to and relate to. I was compelled to meet her. There was no Zoom or FaceTime or anything. We had nothing. And she said, I’m coming to New York and I’m bringing my daughters. I drove to Brooklyn to meet her, which is a drive, and as soon as she came up the stairs off the subway, I knew who she was. We were connected like sisters. It was meant to be. It was really meant to be. It was that my brother was sending this person to me.

[00:26:16] (Peggy) I had planned to meet Maryann at Coney Island, you know. We saw each other, and I knew it was her. Like she said, I mean, I knew it was her. And my daughters went to put their feet in the ocean while Maryann and I sat and talked on the bench. And she said, you want to come to my house? And I didn’t say anything because I’m like, oh, that’s imposing. I mean, I you know, it was just so I didn’t say anything. And then she said it again, I want you to come to my house. And so I looked at the girls and I was like, okay, let’s go. They fixed some delicious Italian meal with this delicious bread. And her sons were there, both of her boys were there. So we met them. Her husband told, I mean, the best stories in this, you know, New York Brooklyn accent. It was just it was so relaxing. The girls and I both said, we took the ferry back to New York City and, it was just we bought all three of us were like, that was just so relaxing. It was just such a nice trip. And that was, in fact, the highlight of our trip.

[00:27:39] (Maryann) I have never been so happy meeting a pen pal. And then I was compelled to go and see her. I said to my husband, I have to go to Oklahoma. I have to see my Peg. I couldn’t wait to see her again. So I went out there for a week, and she treated me like we were best friends, sisters I never met before. She took me all over the place.

[00:28:04] (Peggy) Yeah, I took her everywhere. Maryann wanted to see a tornado, and I’m like, no, Mary Ann, we don’t want to see a tornado. And so, but there’s a museum in Lawton. Lawton was hit by a tornado in the. I think it was in college in the 80s, early 80s. And so they have audio of that. And so we went into, like, this little cellar, you know, area of this museum. It was decorated like a cellar and we listened to the audio of that tornado. So that’s as close as Marianne got to a tornado.

[00:28:40] (Host) Which is the appropriate distance from a tornado.

[00:28:43] (Peggy) Yes. Yes.

[00:28:45] (Maryann) I still talk about it.

[00:28:53] (Host) Have you seen each other than those two get togethers?

[00:28:57] (Maryann) Yeah. Then we went to The Wall together. It was the 50th anniversary of the death, so we planned to meet there. And I took my sister. She took her sister. And then other people got in on the trip, and we had a wonderful trip. We did some sightseeing. We had a meeting at The Wall and just commiserated our pain together. It was a beautiful, beautiful five days.

[00:29:31] (Peggy) Yeah.

[00:29:40] (Host) What were you each hearing from other people about your plans to develop a relationship? Were they supportive? Were they apprehensive? Were they confused?

[00:29:57] (Peggy) I don’t think I ever gave anyone a choice. It was this is what I’m going to do, you know. I did not tell anybody I was researching this on the internet after my discussion with mom when I was in high school. I mean, I really didn’t know how my brothers and my sister felt. I knew how I felt and what I wanted to do, and so I initiated all the research. But after I met her and talked about her know they seem very receptive to, meeting this person who has a connection to our lives.

[00:30:41] (Host) So what about you, Marianne?

[00:30:45] (Maryann) Well, my two sons encouraged me highly. As soon as I said I want to go to Oklahoma, they were like, go. Yes, you should go. I was forwarding my email to my sister and Rosalie and they were encouraging me. It was great that they all thought it was spectacular. Great news now I included Rosalie and Rosalie was actually writing back to Peggy.

[00:31:10] (Peggy) Yes, that’s right. She did write a couple of emails to me.

[00:31:14] (Host) And have you met Rosalie?

[00:31:15] (Peggy) Yeah, we met at The Wall. So. And that was that was such a great experience.

[00:31:21] (Host) So you said it was the 50th anniversary of the accident. So that would have been 2019, right?

[00:31:28] (Peggy) Right, Right.

[00:31:30] (Peggy) What have you learned about Frank? Either from Marianne or from Rosalie, or just through your research? Do you sort of hold on to when you’re thinking about him?

[00:31:44] (Peggy) I loved reading every comment on the Wall of Faces because I learned more about the accident reading his page than reading anything else. Um, because his friends were all pilots. And so they, you know, they went to flight school together and, you know, he apparently loved to cook. And, you know, my dad was a cook. So there was that connection that I liked to hear about. One of his friends commented on how when he was in basic training, he could only get cottage cheese and not ricotta cheese for the lasagna. And you’re like, that must be tragic for a former Italian. An Italian person. Because in Oklahoma we use cottage cheese, not ricotta cheese. So you know.

[00:32:37] (Host) Yeah, you’re doing it wrong.

[00:32:39] (Peggy) Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I, you know, just one of those deals. Wish I could have met him. So.

[00:32:49] (Host) Maryann, I’ll ask you the same question. What have you learned just through your relationship with Peggy about Ivan that’s important to you?

[00:32:57] (Maryann) That he was such a family person that he had five children? I, I am amazed that such a family man that he was, that he had all these beautiful children. It’s a tragedy, I think. I think back on it every day. I have his etching on my in my dining room. It’s just something I can’t let go of when I see all the people from Iraq and Afghanistan and I see fathers. I think of Ivan all the time. It’s just something that sticks with me.

[00:33:35] (Host) Do you ever think about how those two might have regarded each other? You know, if at all. I mean, I don’t know if it was the first time that Frank flew Ivan around, but do you think it was just all business?

[00:33:48] (Maryann) Not with my brother, no.

[00:33:50] (Peggy) No, not with my dad either. He was very outgoing and very funny. And. No, I’m sure they had a great time, chit chatting on a flight.

[00:34:04] (Host) Yeah. Can each of you just talk a little bit about how the relationship has evolved and what it’s meant to you?

[00:34:13] (Maryann) Oh, she’s my she’s my best friend, I call her my Peg. I love her.

[00:34:19] (Peggy) Nobody calls me Peg except family. My dad’s family and mom’s family in Illinois. They call me Peg. And when Mary Ann started calling me Peg, I’m like, oh, she’s my family. I mean, it just seemed natural.

[00:34:34] (Maryann) I just love her. I’m so happy I have her in my life.

[00:34:40] (Host) For people who lost brothers or fathers or sons or husbands who haven’t talked about it, who’s idea of healing is to is to just keep it down. What would you want them to know about the relationship you have with each other and how important that is?

[00:35:02] (Maryann) I say, find a friend. Find someone to speak to. Find anyone that will listen to you. I had a whole family that never mentioned my brother Frank. Find someone. Find someone that will listen to you, that will talk to you. Because it’s a very heavy burden to carry your whole life. Pay somebody to listen to you if you have to.

[00:35:28] (Peggy) It was it was so comforting to know that, she would talk about it. You know, she would talk about Frank and, you know, and share what she knew. She even shared letters that Frank wrote to her mom, and, you know, it was so comforting. It was. It was just comforting.

[00:35:55] (Host) Mary Ann, do you feel different now that you have Peggy in your life?

[00:36:00] (Maryann) Yes, I do. I do, I do. I feel like I have a soulmate.

[00:36:13] (Host) Now. Peggy. That’s got to be. That’s got to be a beautiful thing to hear.

[00:36:18] (Peggy) It is. It is.

[00:36:33] Frank and Ivan are remembered on The Wall, just a few lines from each other on panel 27 West Francis D Alivento is on line 35 and Ivan I Green is on line 38. Big thanks to Peggy and Maryann for sharing their story with us. And to you, as always, for listening. Our little podcast just passed another milestone. It has now been listened to more than 250,000 times. That’s you. You did that. So keep up the good work. We’ll be back in two weeks with more stories of service, sacrifice and healing. See you then.

Full Interview with Peggy Bryant & Maryann Mazza

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